知識管理直播采訪 Interview and Q&A with So?nke Ahrens on How to Take Smart Notes_嗶哩嗶哩_bilibili

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1wk4y1R7ng/

2022-11-10 16:05:33 CST|56m 4s

Keywords:

更多筆記、更多的問題、更多的東西、許多音符、舊筆記、廣泛的筆記、文學(xué)筆記、幾個(gè)問題、更多的時(shí)間、足夠的筆記、獨(dú)立筆記、音符序列、雜亂無章的筆記、一般說明、特別注意、模糊的筆記、注意、適當(dāng)?shù)囊舴?/p>

Transcript:

Tiago Forte 00:00?

但我想歡迎你們所有人參加這次采訪和問答。作者希望與作者如何采取聰明。筆記真的是不可思議的筆記書，需要更多的學(xué)習(xí)。

Tiago Forte 00:13?

生產(chǎn)力個(gè)人成長項(xiàng)目管理，在過去的幾個(gè)月里，我有幸深深沉浸其中。我們要花一個(gè)小時(shí)。在接下來的一個(gè)小時(shí)左右，我的電話很難停下來。我們要問時(shí)髦的問題，假設(shè)他出現(xiàn)了一些問題，實(shí)際上是相當(dāng)多的問題，你們都發(fā)了這些問題，我面前有非常非常好的問題。嗯，這次電話會議的動力是我寫的一篇總結(jié)這本書的文章。如果有人有鏈接并可以放棄它。在聊天中。我會很感激的，那里，我們走吧？我看到你的歌鍵。我將在這里取消靜音歡迎我只是做一個(gè)簡短的介紹。

So?nke Ahrens 01:06?

好了，現(xiàn)在我應(yīng)該解除靜音了。

Tiago Forte 01:08?

好的，很好，順便說一下。你的名字怎么發(fā)音？是一個(gè)悶悶不樂的扎姆庫嗎？哦哇好的zonca好的？這樣更好嗎？

So?nke Ahrens 01:18?

聽起來不錯(cuò)。

Tiago Forte 01:19?

好的完美？我有人工智能，對說英語的人來說也有一個(gè)不尋常的名字，所以我很同情。但是是啊，所以幾個(gè)幾個(gè)方向。請注意，我們首先開始的是聊天，如果您單擊工具欄中的聊天按鈕，您的縮放工具欄。您會注意到側(cè)面彈出一個(gè)窗口。我們實(shí)際上鼓勵(lì)在這些電話上建立反向渠道。您可以在評論中添加問題鏈接到我們提到的其他資源，或者即使我們沒有提到我鼓勵(lì)您介紹自己。這個(gè)電話里有一些非常非常迷人的人，所以聊天記錄肯定是活躍的。我會分享聊天記錄，減去任何私人信息，所以不要覺得你必須寫下任何鏈接、參考資料或書名。我會和你分享所有這些，你可以聽著。第二件事是，我們真的鼓勵(lì)你打開你的攝像頭，如果你有，如果可以的話，打開你的網(wǎng)絡(luò)攝像頭。

Tiago Forte 02:16?

對我們倆來說，看到我們擁有的各種各樣的人，看到你的臉，看到他們的反應(yīng)，真的很有幫助。不管是興奮還是無聊。為了回應(yīng)我們所說的，我們可以實(shí)時(shí)做出回應(yīng)，這就是這些直播的好處。

Tiago Forte 02:31?

不過，這也是我們這樣做的原因。我看到我們有來自世界各地的人，甚至不會試著讀出名字。我們有超過一千人注冊了這個(gè)電話，這是非常不可思議的，真的，真的很酷。所以。讓我們在這里開始吧。我想知道你是否能把你的股票給我們。你喜歡什么？你如何描述你的工作我知道你參與了各種各樣的事情，但是如果你能告訴我們一點(diǎn)你在你的背景下所做的工作。

So?nke Ahrens 03:06?

首先，謝謝你邀請我，我對你的興趣很興奮。你知道那真的很棒，安妮。我目前在德國埃森大學(xué)工作，我的主要領(lǐng)域是。教育哲學(xué)我也研究過科學(xué)哲學(xué)，所以這就是我寫的東西，所以我對大腦之外的思考感興趣。我對如何使用工具更感興趣。建立復(fù)雜的想法。我知道我強(qiáng)調(diào)這本書非常有成效，寫了很多，但我認(rèn)為。我的主要興趣是如何更好地思考。是的，這就是我大多數(shù)時(shí)候的想法。

Tiago Forte 04:06?

好的，太好了，你能談?wù)勀愕慕叹殕幔恳恍┤撕芎闷婺愕慕叹毷鞘裁礃拥?，他們是否能被你教練?/p>

So?nke Ahrens 04:17?

是的，是的，這不是我的主菜。目前的領(lǐng)域，所以我?guī)缀鯖]有時(shí)間在那里，只有幾個(gè)插槽和一個(gè)我的背景是在系統(tǒng)。很高興所以我做咨詢，但目前在線咨詢或多或少只涉及總成本，但將來如果我更少。我忙于在大學(xué)教書。我當(dāng)然會重新啟動我的網(wǎng)站，然后提供更多的背景信息。所以如果你訂閱我的郵件列表。我會隨時(shí)向你通報(bào)這樣的事情。

Tiago Forte 05:08?

好吧，如果有人不介意抓住他叔叔網(wǎng)站的鏈接并把它貼在聊天中，或者就像你有它一樣。我會很感激的。這是一個(gè)合作練習(xí)，正如你所看到的，我們所有人都做出了貢獻(xiàn)。這很有趣。讓我們看看我想補(bǔ)充幾個(gè)問題。我想在開始的時(shí)候問幾個(gè)問題什么？告訴我們一點(diǎn)，這樣我們就知道一點(diǎn)你的背景，在你做的所有事情中，這本書的背景怎么樣？是什么讓你思考，認(rèn)為這真的很重要，很有必要，是什么導(dǎo)致了它的創(chuàng)造。好吧。

So?nke Ahrens 05:48?

這在一定程度上是一個(gè)拖延項(xiàng)目，所以我正在努力。我的下一本書仍在制作中，我努力尋找合適的工具和工具。在某種程度上，這很諷刺，因?yàn)槲已芯磕峁爬埂けR蒙的理論有一段時(shí)間了。我從來沒有把他的實(shí)際工作與解決柯爾斯頓那嚴(yán)重的是，直到我真的發(fā)現(xiàn)他的某種方式。思考，更認(rèn)真地思考大腦之外的事情，分散思想，努力去做。使用技術(shù)和工具來提高復(fù)雜性，這是與理論本身真正相互關(guān)聯(lián)的東西。

So?nke Ahrens 06:59?

當(dāng)然，我嘗試了不同的寫作方式，做筆記，我希望如此。我可以避免人們犯很多我犯的錯(cuò)誤。希望如此。鼓勵(lì)人們做更多的筆記。因?yàn)閮H僅做更多的筆記就會有很大的不同，我確實(shí)認(rèn)為。一定程度的？挑戰(zhàn)你自己和你的想法，我們需要某種外部大腦和。這是我在教學(xué)中想了很多的事情，因?yàn)榻虒W(xué)仍然不是好的，你怎么能挑戰(zhàn)假設(shè)？你怎么能挑戰(zhàn)學(xué)生？你怎么能告訴自己？你身邊并不總是有人挑戰(zhàn)你，做筆記對你有很大幫助。尤其是。

So?nke Ahrens 08:23?

反對確認(rèn)偏見。我就是它，它提醒你你實(shí)際上在想什么，它迫使你讓它更明確，所以我的主要？安希望為人們提供改進(jìn)的系統(tǒng)，可以改善思維和幫助。

So?nke Ahrens 08:53?

2.讓事情變得更容易是因?yàn)?？很多掙扎。我在寫作的早期只是再次發(fā)現(xiàn)事物。記住。我是如何思考一些事情的，只有當(dāng)你能比較筆記時(shí)，你才能真正看到不同，因?yàn)槟愕拇竽X總是適應(yīng)你目前的狀態(tài)。這樣想是主要的想法和。我也希望能激發(fā)一些。

So?nke Ahrens 09:43?

討論我們?nèi)绾谓M織高等教育，因?yàn)槲艺J(rèn)為高等教育仍然非常盲目。沿著舊的想法。你必須有一個(gè)計(jì)劃在手，你必須先提出一個(gè)假設(shè)，然后你做這項(xiàng)工作，這是一種思考我的方式。相信是完全錯(cuò)誤的。技術(shù)可以幫助實(shí)現(xiàn)更開放的流程，更開放地改變。因此，如果技術(shù)也能以這種方式提供幫助。是否標(biāo)志著關(guān)于如何改變高等教育中的各種事情的討論，這將是偉大的？當(dāng)我副作用，是的。

Tiago Forte 10:48?

天哪，我非常同意。對此阿門？是的。你在課堂上教zettelkasten系統(tǒng)嗎？你訓(xùn)練你嗎？學(xué)生們還是他們必須在課堂外發(fā)現(xiàn)它？所以嗯。

So?nke Ahrens 11:08?

我知道你之前給我發(fā)的一個(gè)問題，你的一輛觀景車。被問到你如何說服學(xué)生使用這個(gè)系統(tǒng)或?qū)懜嗟尼斪雍?？這很難，因?yàn)閷W(xué)生們真的沒有。適當(dāng)筆記的價(jià)值，采取系統(tǒng)通常是那些在他們的期末考試，有寫論文的挑戰(zhàn)，并希望他們已經(jīng)開始早。剛開始學(xué)習(xí)的學(xué)生，對于那些想使用它的人來說，這是最好的東西，通常從學(xué)校就有這種心態(tài)。

So?nke Ahrens 12:02?

在那里你得到一些包裹，只是拿盒子，而不是真正抓?。坑浌P記的重要性，如果你作為教授告訴他們這真的很重要。他們通常會想，我不會去2。教授和寫書，所以也許這有點(diǎn)，太多了，所以我的解決方案是。

So?nke Ahrens 12:35?

春天年長的和年輕的學(xué)生在一起，讓年長的史蒂文斯解釋了幫助學(xué)生的重要性，因?yàn)樗麄兏尚?，他們知道一天中晚些時(shí)候會發(fā)生的斗爭?？梢韵蚰切﹦傞_始很好的人解釋這真的是一個(gè)優(yōu)勢。如果你早點(diǎn)開始，如果你一路上調(diào)整系統(tǒng)，擁有一個(gè)完美的系統(tǒng)并不重要。只是寫了很多，所以一些導(dǎo)師在這方面做得很好，所以這些是。說服學(xué)生多做筆記的方法。

Tiago Forte 13:23?

是的，我喜歡。我喜歡它。我提醒你，如果你讓人們駝背，那就在投資中鍛煉身體。洗牌，表現(xiàn)得像他們的老人，或者感受到變老的感覺，然后突然，他們想投資更多。他們想存更多的錢，他們想把錢存入退休賬戶。就像你把他們的現(xiàn)在和他們未來的自己聯(lián)系起來。這會改變行為嗎？

Tiago Forte 13:47?

我非常喜歡它，好吧，所以你提到了你。你從Nicholas Lumens輸出就是內(nèi)容。工作也是實(shí)用的系統(tǒng)，就像你所做的那樣，讓你感到驚訝。當(dāng)你真正研究和深入這個(gè)金屬鑄件的細(xì)節(jié)時(shí)，有什么讓你感到驚訝的嗎？

So?nke Ahrens 14:12?

嗯。我不確定是否有很多驚喜。更重要的是，我仍然非常喜歡這種輸出。然后。是的，我是說理論上有問題。我仍然對你使用的技術(shù)如何塑造你的思維感興趣？這種理論，你可以從那里發(fā)展。安。但我認(rèn)為主要的驚喜是很多驚喜。這幾乎就是它被描述的方式。沒有隱藏的秘密，所以這可能是主要的驚喜。

Tiago Forte 15:05?

是的，我注意到在很多問題中，就像你知道的，關(guān)于你如何做的非常具體的步驟的如此詳細(xì)的問題，感覺就像人們試圖對你知道的藥水進(jìn)行逆向工程。這種神奇的藥水，如果他們能把比例調(diào)得恰到好處的話。我會的是的。

So?nke Ahrens 15:29?

安井II知道的。缺乏循序漸進(jìn)的描述和。我完全理解這是一個(gè)整潔的，我一定會提供這樣的東西。現(xiàn)在重要的是，一旦我完全相信一個(gè)持久的軟件，我就可以全心全意地開發(fā)它。建議使用它，因?yàn)槟阒荒茏鲆徊揭徊降拿枋觥?/p>

So?nke Ahrens 16:11?

當(dāng)您決定使用的技術(shù)或您使用的軟件時(shí)？我是說，你不需要一步一步的描述。當(dāng)你用筆和紙寫字時(shí)，會有更多的步驟，因?yàn)椴襟E就在那里，而不是太多？我說過，我認(rèn)為嘗試遵循一個(gè)循序漸進(jìn)的過程可能會有誤解，因?yàn)槭紫饶阈枰鶕?jù)自己的需要調(diào)整它。這本書不僅僅是由讀者閱讀的。社會科學(xué)的學(xué)者，但許多人有興趣在非常不同的領(lǐng)域工作，你需要適應(yīng)這一點(diǎn)，我目前的主要建議是這樣的。軟件，因?yàn)樗恰Ｎ覀儓?jiān)持你最喜歡的東西。不要試圖建立一個(gè)全新的系統(tǒng)，因?yàn)槟憧赡軙淮斡忠淮蔚亟K止切換系統(tǒng)，從而降低切換成本。堅(jiān)持你所擁有的，看看什么對你真正有效，你把重點(diǎn)放在哪里，這可能是有意義的，這實(shí)際上取決于你的工作類型，所以學(xué)者肯定會有更多的重點(diǎn)。

So?nke Ahrens 17:42?

上。參考系和。文獻(xiàn)指出，當(dāng)你發(fā)展關(guān)于你的業(yè)務(wù)的想法時(shí)，這并不重要。所以我會把更多的重點(diǎn)放在你的項(xiàng)目上。印度項(xiàng)目票據(jù)有多古老？Nb.好吧，有了層次結(jié)構(gòu)就沒問題了。它只是不應(yīng)該被硬連接到系統(tǒng)中。但你可以。當(dāng)你清楚地知道你的項(xiàng)目是什么時(shí)，主題和子主題的層次要高得多，這對于許多更以業(yè)務(wù)為導(dǎo)向的人來說當(dāng)然是正確的。有一個(gè)明確的。關(guān)于他們想要使用的內(nèi)容的想法，所以你需要稍微調(diào)整一下，這就是我這么想的原因。至少一開始很重要。真正解釋系統(tǒng)背后的原理和思想，并明確它與通常的方式不同的地方。

So?nke Ahrens 19:05?

寫作和做筆記。你明白原則。你處于一個(gè)非常好的位置，可以建立一些屬于你自己的東西。你是嗎？我認(rèn)為這比試圖復(fù)制你的風(fēng)格要好得多？這可能不是你真正的領(lǐng)域。

Tiago Forte 19:33?

非常同意你剛才說的話，這與我的經(jīng)歷非常相似，我是說，我只是我進(jìn)入了我們的。我們的登機(jī)調(diào)查，我想昨天或前一天對我們的學(xué)生進(jìn)行了調(diào)查，我看了一下問題，你使用哪個(gè)筆記應(yīng)用程序，可能有30多個(gè)，可能有30多個(gè)不同的筆記應(yīng)用程序？所以我們的方法是利用購物中心和2來做一種大腦，就像頭腦融合的頭腦風(fēng)暴，我們把每個(gè)人都聚集在一起進(jìn)行縮放通話，就像這樣，我們分享筆記。你知道，我喜歡你所說的技術(shù)確實(shí)影響了你的思維方式，我發(fā)現(xiàn)有人會想出一個(gè)絕妙的主意，因?yàn)樗麄兪褂昧艘恍┗逎y懂的筆記，使用了一些其他人很少做的功能的應(yīng)用程序。這將給他們一個(gè)洞察力，然后他們可以把它帶回來給我們，我們可以應(yīng)用到我們自己的系統(tǒng)中。所以這有點(diǎn)挑戰(zhàn)，但我希望系統(tǒng)的多樣性和不同技術(shù)的多樣性可以成為一種力量，而不是障礙。

So?nke Ahrens 20:36?

我是。我確實(shí)認(rèn)為你是對的，這個(gè)系統(tǒng)沒有很大的獨(dú)立性。走向應(yīng)用程序。但與此同時(shí)，我確實(shí)認(rèn)為軟件的技術(shù)使用年限？有所作為，也許是一個(gè)重要的區(qū)別。但是。此刻我。我冷靜地推薦一個(gè)至少對所有客戶都有效的特定項(xiàng)目。我談過了。我認(rèn)為該軟件不會讓您產(chǎn)生巨大的影響。所以我也希望正在進(jìn)行的討論，以及正在進(jìn)行的很多事情和發(fā)展會有一些泡沫。是的，這結(jié)合了許多不同工具的優(yōu)點(diǎn)，而且不是存檔。目前的大多數(shù)東西對收藏家來說都是真的。對于思維發(fā)展來說就不那么重要了。如果你有一個(gè)低門檻的寫作，而你沒有得到回報(bào)，那就有很大的不同。站在軟件旁邊，所以我真的很喜歡門檻低、簡單的一切。在所有可能的微調(diào)和調(diào)整都不會過火的地方，絕對會看到什么會冒泡。

Tiago Forte 22:24?

這是一個(gè)激動人心的時(shí)刻，所以正好趕上這個(gè)領(lǐng)域。我想再問你一個(gè)問題。但是我想從其他人那里得到兩個(gè)問題。我會在臺階上做最后一件事。我會把這個(gè)谷歌文檔放在聊天中，我給你發(fā)了一些密鑰，我沒有把它包含在我的原始文章中。因?yàn)槲业奈恼赂嗟氖顷P(guān)于原則，但我想我會把它作為附錄添加到底部。這基本上是對8個(gè)步驟的總結(jié)。所以你在書中概述了使用這些小演員的方法，如果你想?yún)⒖?，或者如果其他人參考。那很好，但是但是嗯。讓我們繼續(xù)討論其他問題，例如，最后一個(gè)問題。我想問你哪個(gè)是。人們對這個(gè)系統(tǒng)有什么誤解？你注意到他們經(jīng)常誤解誤解的東西是什么？

Tiago Forte 23:22?

我想。安。

So?nke Ahrens 23:26?

我不確定這是否真的符合問題。但是經(jīng)?？吹降氖悄膫€(gè)是哪個(gè)真的不是我的本意，是人真的對自己很苛刻嗎？沒有一個(gè)完美的系統(tǒng)，我的意圖是提供一些幫助你的東西。簡化事情，讓事情變得更容易，讓事情變得更容易停下來?，F(xiàn)在我經(jīng)?？吹饺藗儾毁M(fèi)吹灰之力地尋找一個(gè)完美的系統(tǒng)，這幾乎就像人們現(xiàn)在因?yàn)槭虑闆]那么容易而懲罰自己。所以我想強(qiáng)調(diào)這一點(diǎn)。寫作仍然很困難，當(dāng)然，總是有與組織的斗爭和我在哪里的問題？將這個(gè)想法與另一個(gè)想法聯(lián)系起來，但這都是系統(tǒng)的一部分。在某些方面，所以一開始就有一個(gè)反饋循環(huán)。我也傾向于做很多。廣泛的節(jié)點(diǎn)，但你很快意識到你并不真正知道。如何處理這個(gè)特定的音符，所以你調(diào)整了一點(diǎn)，然后下一個(gè)可能有點(diǎn)太短，所以我們再次調(diào)整。所有這些不一定是你做錯(cuò)了什么的跡象。只是還在學(xué)習(xí)曲線。我認(rèn)為重要的是要接受寫筆記的困難，理解和。經(jīng)歷艱難的稅收，并試圖用你自己的話重新表述它。這是一個(gè)挑戰(zhàn)，但是他們解決了更糟糕的挑戰(zhàn)，專注于而不是分心？

Tiago Forte 25:37?

這是我最喜歡的這些系統(tǒng)的用途之一。如果你不知道你的筆記是怎么做的，筆記系統(tǒng)應(yīng)該是在那上面做筆記，收集關(guān)于那上面的想法。是這樣的。這個(gè)遞歸過程，你可以繼續(xù)研究任何挑戰(zhàn)你的東西，即使是系統(tǒng)本身。

Tiago Forte 25:55?

我發(fā)現(xiàn)這是我筆記的一個(gè)非常有成效的用途。讓我們看看這里OK。所以我給你們發(fā)了很多很好的問題。我要避開更多與技術(shù)相關(guān)的東西？因?yàn)槲铱梢陨钊肓私鈱?shí)現(xiàn)和功能的真正細(xì)粒度細(xì)節(jié)，所有這些東西也將在這里與大家見面。你能提供一種方法來指導(dǎo)那些沒有做過類似事情的人開始嗎？也許他們在這里和那里做了一些非常隨意的筆記。但是除了這8個(gè)步驟之外，你還概述了你建議人們做的最初事情的一些設(shè)置。

So?nke Ahrens 26:44?

是的，我想。你不應(yīng)該做的是試圖把你所有的筆記都轉(zhuǎn)移到系統(tǒng)里，然后花時(shí)間在上面。更多的是關(guān)于。以不同的方式做。如果你把舊筆記集成到新系統(tǒng)中，那就太好了。但是當(dāng)你無論如何都想使用它們的時(shí)候就去做。如果你一開始感覺良好，就有。

So?nke Ahrens 27:19?

2連接筆記的可能性很小，然后試著明確你已經(jīng)知道的，因?yàn)槟阌肋h(yuǎn)不會從頭開始，永遠(yuǎn)不會從空白頁開始。僅僅試圖明確你已經(jīng)在想什么，這真的會有所不同，這會給你一點(diǎn)結(jié)構(gòu)。這有助于你開始和？也許從你擁有的項(xiàng)目開始。沒有。

So?nke Ahrens 28:00?

嗯。不是每件事都必須從底部冒泡。你可以用你已經(jīng)有的想法開始你的項(xiàng)目。從一個(gè)層次結(jié)構(gòu)開始，這樣鋁集定制。

So?nke Ahrens 28:18?

然后他從主題開始，因?yàn)樗且粋€(gè)主要的興趣領(lǐng)域。當(dāng)然，從那時(shí)起，它以不同的方式發(fā)展。主題變得越來越不重要，但它可以成為一個(gè)起點(diǎn)。只是不要硬線。層次結(jié)構(gòu)進(jìn)入你的系統(tǒng)，所以這可能是一個(gè)更一般的注意事項(xiàng)。關(guān)于如何開始是的。我想要。

Tiago Forte 28:46?

到。我想強(qiáng)調(diào)你說的兩件事，第一件事不是做大規(guī)模的包羅萬象的遷移。在我自己的教學(xué)和輔導(dǎo)中。我曾經(jīng)。我過去常這么做。我過去要么親自和人們坐在一起，要么打電話，要么幾個(gè)星期，引導(dǎo)他們完成這些遷移，這不可避免地需要時(shí)間。只是難以置信的大量時(shí)間，但也會被格式的小細(xì)節(jié)和無法翻譯的東西以及架構(gòu)和所有這些東西所吸引。

Tiago Forte 29:20?

我現(xiàn)在教一些我稱之為數(shù)字延禧的東西，這是一個(gè)想法，如果你有一堆雜亂無章的筆記堆積在一起，我建議每年一次，你只要把它們歸檔。在存檔中放上日期，這樣你就可以找到它們。如果你真的需要它們，但本質(zhì)上是重新開始。你知道，不是把過去的組織或組織包袱帶到未來，只是把它拋在腦后。

Tiago Forte 29:47?

但是你說過不要總是從下往上開始。我曾經(jīng)。當(dāng)我是會寫一篇博客文章。我的第一步是瀏覽成百上千的筆記并收集材料。但問題是，如果我的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)只是什么是有趣的？嗯，我的筆記系統(tǒng)里的一切都很有趣，這就是我保存它的原因。所以我會從寫博客文章的第一步開始，就像。幾十頁的筆記，然后不得不花這么多時(shí)間打電話打電話打電話打電話才能下來，現(xiàn)在我做的更多的是你建議的我從哪開始？我知道什么是主旨？這總是更直觀的事情，是立即想到的事情。然后我可以通過我的筆記，更嚴(yán)格地過濾我需要什么？對我來說，這只是一個(gè)支持這一點(diǎn)的感覺，所以我找到了類似的東西。

So?nke Ahrens 30:39?

在找什么？這些問題也有幫助，因?yàn)槲业囊馑际?，很多事情都很有趣。但是?dāng)你開始思考什么是你自己的貢獻(xiàn)或者什么的時(shí)候？是這個(gè)領(lǐng)域的問題，它給了你某種焦點(diǎn)，不需要一定是公式問題。但是。試著。指出困擾你的是什么，這里的問題可能是什么，并尋找極端問題的答案？是一個(gè)非常好的過濾器？

Tiago Forte 31:26?

絕對絕對你能談?wù)劦侥壳盀橹谷藗冇凶疃鄦栴}或困惑的原則是根據(jù)上下文而不是主題提交的原則嗎？一個(gè)人說你怎么知道首先是什么？什么是上下文？我如何知道我的聯(lián)系人是什么？如果你在其他地方說你不知道你將來要做什么，你怎么知道你的聯(lián)系人是什么？你怎么能決定呢？當(dāng)你想再看到這東西的時(shí)候。

So?nke Ahrens 31:59?

當(dāng)然，所以。聯(lián)系人和主題不一定是相互排斥的，當(dāng)然在特定上下文中的注釋也可以是對特定主題的貢獻(xiàn)。我想在這里強(qiáng)調(diào)的是收集的區(qū)別，如果你想在什么樣的主題下做，我提交這個(gè)？安，當(dāng)你問自己這個(gè)想法能在哪個(gè)音符序列中貢獻(xiàn)哪種討論時(shí)，這就像一個(gè)收藏家一樣思考。

So?nke Ahrens 32:39?

他更深入實(shí)際內(nèi)容。例如，你會思考這些新信息對你以前的健康信念有什么不同。信息只能對向收藏添加一些東西有所不同。當(dāng)然，在附加信息方面也有不同但也有差別。所以上下文更多的是關(guān)于內(nèi)容級別的主題。幾乎總是更多地思考它，當(dāng)他尋找背景時(shí)。你想思考。所以你更多地考慮的是不同，而不是信息對你之前寫的東西的影響。你看內(nèi)容層面。你不是在看關(guān)鍵詞，也不是在看索引。你想得很好。這只是一個(gè)補(bǔ)充，還是一個(gè)矛盾，正在擾亂我以前的助手。這就是，我必須改變我以前的想法，并試圖明確這一點(diǎn)，所以這是關(guān)于盡快得到的。進(jìn)入內(nèi)容，而不是試圖從你只是分類的層次上思考。這可能是主要的。

So?nke Ahrens 34:23?

當(dāng)涉及到收集筆記時(shí)，這也意味著很抱歉您可能想要編寫節(jié)點(diǎn)。已經(jīng)與預(yù)先存在的節(jié)點(diǎn)進(jìn)行對話，因此真正將您的系統(tǒng)視為對話伙伴并進(jìn)行回答。到您正在連接新節(jié)點(diǎn)的節(jié)點(diǎn)，這與僅僅收集非常不同。

Tiago Forte 34:58?

絕對絕對，所以看起來上下文和主題是一樣的。但是再往右走幾步。你認(rèn)為循環(huán)二階效應(yīng)你認(rèn)為后果你認(rèn)為它的用法？你為什么覺得這很難？為什么人們？找到挑戰(zhàn)者了嗎？為什么他們不自然地對此進(jìn)行額外的思考。

So?nke Ahrens 35:23?

嗯，我認(rèn)為在開始時(shí)將任何類型的收集想法的軟件視為一種收集是很自然的。

So?nke Ahrens 35:41?

我不確定這是否真的很難，所以我一定認(rèn)為這只是想法不同，因?yàn)槲覀兿矚g收集東西，我們喜歡收集。感覺越來越多。似乎效率較低。她。電話和東西。我以前可能錯(cuò)了嗎？新信息等等。

So?nke Ahrens 36:19?

我的意思是這才是我真正感興趣的。我對有一個(gè)偉大的輸出不太感興趣。只是將信息重新整理成新的博客文章或類似的東西。但我感興趣的是如何發(fā)現(xiàn)葡萄酒是錯(cuò)誤的？我們可以嗎？如果你想改變以前的健康信念，這意味著要花很多時(shí)間，重新思考事情。你已經(jīng)寫下來了，所以也許。這可能是不太自然的部分。

Tiago Forte 36:59?

是的，是的，這是這是非常有趣的。我在找類似的東西。我注意到的與人合作的東西在哪里？人們傾向于閱讀他們已經(jīng)知道的東西嗎？提高效率的人學(xué)習(xí)提高效率的書，你知道，呃工程學(xué)。人們閱讀工程學(xué)書籍文學(xué)。人們讀文學(xué)書籍。我在我妻子的臉書上有過這樣的經(jīng)歷。這都是強(qiáng)化的信息，我認(rèn)為你真的只能在你上別人的過濾氣泡時(shí)看到它，因?yàn)槟阕约旱母杏X完全正常和自然，我剛剛意識到，然后我看了看她的Kindle。我只是，我只是在瀏覽她的設(shè)備，有點(diǎn)窺探。我看著她的Kindle。她最喜歡的都是關(guān)于3、4或5個(gè)主題的書，然后我回到了我的Kindle，這是關(guān)于我已經(jīng)知道的主題的完全相同風(fēng)格的書，如果我在看書和評估的時(shí)候，我會覺得我已經(jīng)朝著這個(gè)方向前進(jìn)了。我知道或同意強(qiáng)調(diào)它的意義。你知道我是否可以，或者這已經(jīng)是我心理模型的一部分。我已經(jīng)可以推斷了。如果它讓我震驚，我甚至根本不保留它。令我驚訝的是，在某種程度上違背了我的期望，即使我不明白為什么。

Tiago Forte 38:10?

那就更多了。我發(fā)現(xiàn)自己正朝著那個(gè)方向前進(jìn)，因?yàn)檫@就像。我想打破它們。在某種學(xué)習(xí)模型中。我想在我現(xiàn)有的心理模型中找到最好的攻擊向量。

So?nke Ahrens 38:23?

是的，我認(rèn)為這可能是目前的挑戰(zhàn)，因?yàn)檫@沒那么容易，你可以說，好吧，如果你思想開放，你就思想開放，你自己也會面對很多廢話。你不想讓自己封閉自己，但同時(shí)你也不想重復(fù)你已經(jīng)知道的事情，所以這不是開放或封閉。關(guān)于你如何處理仍然挑戰(zhàn)你的選擇性？甚至寫這個(gè)也很棘手。不是。是的，這是個(gè)挑戰(zhàn)，但是。這是一個(gè)有趣的問題。

Tiago Forte 39:17?

是啊，這個(gè)問題我想問自己當(dāng)II。發(fā)現(xiàn)自己想要一個(gè)這樣的職位？是我想正確還是想有效？因?yàn)槲医?jīng)常發(fā)現(xiàn)自己有這樣一種渴望是對的。特別是在人際關(guān)系中，然后我問自己好嗎？你想在這種情況下是對的還是你想有效而我通常去？我想成為？活躍的該死的。我想問你關(guān)于間隔重復(fù)的問題，我有幾個(gè)問題。所以我對間隔重復(fù)有點(diǎn)不滿。我覺得空間重復(fù)與外部大腦的想法相反。這就像你試圖將外部大腦從人腦轉(zhuǎn)移到外部大腦。用不同的記憶技術(shù)間隔重復(fù)，試圖把它從外部世界帶到你的大腦。這里有什么？你有沒有間隔重復(fù)和/或任何記憶技巧，你對此有什么看法。

So?nke Ahrens 40:13?

我不使用任何記憶技巧，因?yàn)槲也恍枰涀∪魏螙|西。我不知道在什么情況下我需要記憶。我是說，我知道。有些職業(yè)有整齊的如果你的花蜜。你需要排練你的臺詞，你需要記住它們。但是。幾乎總是需要記憶是不完整的人工設(shè)置在教育和。幾乎在所有情況下，你都可以問自己。如果你在記憶方面有困難也許。試著更好地理解它，并有更多的例子與其他想法有更多的聯(lián)系，以進(jìn)一步闡述它。因?yàn)槿绻阋呀?jīng)完全闡述了一些東西，你通常不需要記住它。所以我對記憶不感興趣，話雖如此。我喜歡。我喜歡把事情放在心上的感覺，而不是健忘的感覺，我確實(shí)這么認(rèn)為。當(dāng)你有一個(gè)你強(qiáng)迫自己的系統(tǒng)時(shí)。

So?nke Ahrens 41:43?

定期重溫，舊筆記是一種內(nèi)置的。聲譽(yù)或空間重復(fù)。但我不會說這是一種明確的記憶技巧。但我認(rèn)為這就是原則。就我而言，這是在工作。我知道這是。憑經(jīng)驗(yàn)。相當(dāng)扎實(shí)的技術(shù)。

Tiago Forte 42:21?

當(dāng)然，你之前提到過有一些理論問題，你仍然在思考其中之一是技術(shù)如何影響你的思維方式，有沒有任何當(dāng)前或其他懸而未決的問題，你可以和我們分享？我很好奇你自己在這方面的學(xué)習(xí)前沿是什么？

So?nke Ahrens 42:42?

嗯，我腦海中的一個(gè)問題是我之前提到的，如何保持開放的心態(tài)而不太分心，以及如何做到？安妮發(fā)現(xiàn)好不是一個(gè)平衡，因?yàn)槠胶馔ǔ２皇且粋€(gè)好主意，但。然而，如何反對你的偏見和。

So?nke Ahrens 43:14?

嗯。處理。黨派和過濾氣泡。我們遇到了，如果有的話。教育可以幫助解決這個(gè)問題。是的，這是我或多或少想到的事情之一。在早些時(shí)候。更重要的是如何進(jìn)去。怎樣什么樣的環(huán)境？我們需要讓內(nèi)部更有可能嗎？從根本上改變我們的想法，而不僅僅是表面上的。但在一個(gè)非?；镜姆绞剑晕?。研究了很多科學(xué)史，所以思想的外化和思維的盒子之外。

So?nke Ahrens 44:25?

在里面。下一個(gè)永恒的大腦或在實(shí)驗(yàn)室中，以及用某物思考和在某物中思考之間的區(qū)別。這是我想進(jìn)一步闡述的事情。

Tiago Forte 44:46?

太好了，太好了，我也是，所以我已經(jīng)涵蓋了之前發(fā)送的大部分問題。有些我認(rèn)為不完全適合這個(gè)電話，但讓我們?nèi)チ奶臁Ｎ覜]能跟上很多很多的信息，但是繼續(xù)吧。但是在聊天中，任何你想讓孩子接觸的東西。

So?nke Ahrens 45:08?

嗯，我已經(jīng)看到了很多關(guān)于軟件、應(yīng)用程序和技術(shù)的問題，我之前提到過。我不想深究這一點(diǎn)，因?yàn)槲蚁氲搅似渌Ｈ藗儗捎玫臇|西有更好的概述。

So?nke Ahrens 45:28?

I.修補(bǔ)是羅馬的時(shí)刻，所以這可能是我一步一步變成的描述。但是我還沒有下定決心。因?yàn)槲也皇?。在理解的層面。我仍然在我的網(wǎng)站上這個(gè)舊程序，但做了橢圓，這對我有用，但也有它的缺點(diǎn)。但這幾乎適用于目前可用的技術(shù)，但我認(rèn)為我需要解決這個(gè)問題，因?yàn)檫@是目前許多人最關(guān)心的問題，尤其是當(dāng)你開始做決定的時(shí)候。

So?nke Ahrens 46:21?

這個(gè)軟件年，但是。是的，僅僅因?yàn)槲沂褂盟⒉灰馕吨亲詈玫模艺J(rèn)為它是為這個(gè)系統(tǒng)明確設(shè)計(jì)的。但是是的，在某些方面，笨重而過時(shí)，所以我很期待。接下來會發(fā)生什么？

Tiago Forte 46:48?

你對羅馬或你使用的另一個(gè)或任何其他方面有什么建議嗎？軟件制造商有沒有任何系統(tǒng)的盲點(diǎn)或他們錯(cuò)過的東西，你會建議很好地包括在內(nèi)，嗯。

So?nke Ahrens 47:05?

我想我會等到我回答這個(gè)問題，我完全相信的那一刻。錯(cuò)誤有很多值得喜歡的地方。但是我還沒有下定決心，但是現(xiàn)在我已經(jīng)下定決心了，我會的。更改了我網(wǎng)站上的推薦，我會發(fā)送一封郵件，所以如果你注冊了我的時(shí)事通訊，這是。也許一年一次。我真的沒有興趣。發(fā)送了太多的東西，我不認(rèn)為這有什么幫助，但是。這將是我要宣布的事情，因?yàn)槲艺J(rèn)為這很重要，但我現(xiàn)在不能做出結(jié)論性聲明。

Tiago Forte 48:06?

好的，我們有了？我的下一批課程從4月6日開始，我們將有我之前沒有宣布過，但我們不會有埃利亞松？他是頑固的羅馬倡導(dǎo)者，也是羅馬在線課程的創(chuàng)建者。他將來參加一個(gè)關(guān)于如何使用羅馬的客座研討會，特別是如何將我的想法和我在該軟件上教的一些東西聯(lián)系起來，所以如果你有興趣參加，我很樂意送你。

So?nke Ahrens 48:34?

這個(gè)鏈接。凈網(wǎng)前。

Tiago Forte 48:37?

納特·埃利亞松。

So?nke Ahrens 48:39?

是的，是的，嗯，我沒有和他聯(lián)系。如果我被說服了，也許我們可以一起做點(diǎn)什么。

Tiago Forte 48:48?

酷哦好完美。是的，這是一個(gè)緊密相連的網(wǎng)絡(luò)筆記世界。諷刺的是，或者說足夠恰當(dāng)。

So?nke Ahrens 48:58?

我是說那是。真正的下一步是如何協(xié)作，而不僅僅是擁有獨(dú)立的筆記，而是。更多地考慮他們，更多地考慮相互聯(lián)系的協(xié)作，我認(rèn)為這將是下一步。好的，完美。

Tiago Forte 49:20?

瀏覽這里的聊天繼續(xù)并放棄你有的任何其他問題。有人有一個(gè)問題，我不記得書中提到過這個(gè)問題，但是你能評論一下你應(yīng)該對一個(gè)來源做足夠的筆記，這樣你就再也不用讀了。他這個(gè)人說是尼摩船長說的，嗯，盧曼說了這句話，但他擔(dān)心這會減慢他記太多筆記的速度。

So?nke Ahrens 49:53?

是的。我是說Lumen明確地說他從來沒有在這里重溫過這本書，但這并不一定是因?yàn)樗谕潜緯锏乃行畔?。因?yàn)樗浅Ｌ籼?，然后繼續(xù)前進(jìn)。我認(rèn)為這可能值得解決，因?yàn)檫@是嘗試的另一個(gè)陷阱。讓這個(gè)系統(tǒng)把結(jié)構(gòu)強(qiáng)加給自己，系統(tǒng)應(yīng)該服務(wù)于你的工作，幫助你。不應(yīng)該給你施加壓力，讓你做大量的筆記。所以我認(rèn)為作為一個(gè)專業(yè)讀者并不意味著一定要擁有。記筆記的質(zhì)量水平意味著能夠調(diào)整你對文本的時(shí)間和注意力的量？處理這個(gè)和那個(gè)有時(shí)意味著閱讀標(biāo)題和放棄。它消失了，有時(shí)這意味著需要幾周的時(shí)間來經(jīng)歷這一切，安里。

So?nke Ahrens 51:20?

表達(dá)它，能夠調(diào)整注意力和速度，這才是真正的意義所在，所以我。有時(shí)根本不做筆記。有時(shí)我會跳過重新措辭的部分，因?yàn)槲也恍枰?，有時(shí)我知道它在手稿中的確切位置。我把它寫在一張小紙上。我通常有你知道5，我有一個(gè)木箱，我收集？因?yàn)槲蚁矚g文學(xué)，尼爾森。那是筆和紙，但有時(shí)我有一個(gè)很大的工作表。一個(gè)只寫一篇文章的人有很多筆記，因?yàn)樗畔⒏S富，它是關(guān)于調(diào)整的，而不是讓它完美。如果你覺得喜歡。你在浪費(fèi)時(shí)間，那么也許你不應(yīng)該在這一步投入更多的工作，但是想想。在那里你可以繼續(xù)前進(jìn)。

Tiago Forte 52:42?

是的，我不能，我不能，我想強(qiáng)調(diào)這一點(diǎn)，所以改編。我認(rèn)為這是系統(tǒng)處方的最大陷阱。你把所有的代理都外包給系統(tǒng)，但當(dāng)它真正是關(guān)于適應(yīng)的時(shí)候？進(jìn)化是有趣的電子郵件之一，我收到的是有人上我的課程或他們閱讀的郵件。我所有的文章，然后他們給我寫信，這封非常抱歉的電子郵件，他們喜歡，很抱歉我討厭這樣做，但是。我不能完全按照描述的那樣使用你的系統(tǒng)，然后他們寫道，你知道所有這些細(xì)節(jié)，關(guān)于他們?yōu)槭裁春腿绾握嬲伎歼@個(gè)問題，我回信說你。你拿到了。當(dāng)你知道得足夠多，并且對你的思維方式足夠自信時(shí)，你就掌握了它。你可以反駁我，你有充分的理由這樣做，你不需要道歉，這實(shí)際上是學(xué)習(xí)的巔峰，你不再需要向像我這樣的人尋求答案。我認(rèn)為這是一個(gè)非常深刻的想法。好的。還有一件事。當(dāng)然應(yīng)該。

Tiago Forte 53:52?

我知道我是，我想我們要繼續(xù)結(jié)束了。我想問你要確保按時(shí)結(jié)束。我想問你人們在哪里可以找到你，或者你會把他們送到哪里，如果他們還能做些什么來了解更多關(guān)于你和你的工作的信息，他們?nèi)绾稳匀挥嗛喣愕碾娮余]件列表。

So?nke Ahrens 54:11?

嗯。我提到了時(shí)事通訊，你會在網(wǎng)站上找到它，記下智能筆記。有一天我需要重新啟動它，但是。這可能是我真正關(guān)注靜力學(xué)稍后出現(xiàn)的內(nèi)容之一。當(dāng)我有更多的時(shí)間進(jìn)行指導(dǎo)和咨詢時(shí)，我肯定會重新啟動，并且會更明確，但我可以提供。安。我可以通過郵件列表隨時(shí)向您更新。那是。事情和最好的方式保持聯(lián)系OK完美。

Tiago Forte 55:06?

Zonkey。我想謝謝你。我想去。謝謝你花時(shí)間寫這本書，并把所有這些想法具體化。形式上，這真的是一個(gè)巨大的靈感，也是來這里回答問題的時(shí)候了。我知道你很忙，我很感激你愿意?；〞r(shí)間和我們在一起也要感謝大家的到來。我知道現(xiàn)在世界上發(fā)生了很多事情，筆記是你可能正在學(xué)習(xí)的事情之一。但是我真的很感激你們都能現(xiàn)場直播，讓這成為一個(gè)更多的。協(xié)作練習(xí)。

So?nke Ahrens 55:43?

謝謝你邀請我，謝謝大家的信任。

Tiago Forte 55:49?

謝謝大家，我有一個(gè)錄音給你們所有人，可能很快就會把這個(gè)放在YouTube驢子同意，否則你的一周會有一個(gè)美好的結(jié)局。大家再見。

2022-11-10 16:05:33 CST|56m 4s

Keywords:

more notes、more question、more thing、many notes、old notes、extensive notes、literature notes、few questions、more time、sufficient notes、standalone notes、note sequence、disorganized notes、general note、particular note、obscur note、note taking、proper note

Transcript:

Tiago Forte 00:00?

But I wanted to welcome you all to this interview and Q&A. With the author hopefully with the author of how to take smart. Notes are really incredible book on note, taking and really much more learning.

Tiago Forte 00:13?

Productivity personal growth project management that I've had the pleasure of kind of being deeply immersed in the past few months. We're going to take an hour. I have a hard stop with the call in the next hour or so. We're going to ask funky assuming he shows up a few questions actually quite a number of questions that you've all sent in which I have in front of me here really, really excellent questions. Um this sort of impetus for this call was an article that I wrote summarizing the book. If someone has the link to that and could drop it. In the chat. I'd appreciate it, there, we go? I see you song key. I'll unmute you here welcome I'm just doing a short introduction.

So?nke Ahrens 01:06?

Ok, now I should be unmuted.

Tiago Forte 01:08?

Ok great and by the way. How do you pronounce your name is it is a sulky zamku? Oh wow OK zonca OK? Is that better.

So?nke Ahrens 01:18?

That sounds great.

Tiago Forte 01:19?

Ok perfect? I have AI have an unusual name for English speakers as well so I empathize. But yeah, so a few a few orientation. Notes here as we get started first is the chat if you click the chat button in the toolbar your zoom toolbar. You'll notice a window pop up on the side. We actually encourage a backchannel on these calls. You can drop in comments there questions links to other resources that we mentioned or even though we don't mention I encourage you to introduce yourself. There's some really, really fascinating people on this call so definitely have the chat transcript active and. I'll share that chat transcript minus any private messages so don't feel like you have to write down any links or references or book titles. I will share all of that with you, you can just listen. And the second thing is, we actually really encourage you to turn on your camera turn on your webcam if you have one and if you can.

Tiago Forte 02:16?

It's really helpful for both of us to kind of see the variety of people we have see your faces see their reactions. Whether it's excitement or boredom. In response to what we're saying we can kind of respond in real time that's the benefit of these live.

Tiago Forte 02:31?

And it's the reason we do, though. I see we have people from all over the world, not even going to try to read out the names. We had over a thousand people registered for this call which is pretty incredible really, really cool. So. Let's get started here is OK. I wonder if you could give us your your stock. What do you do like? How do you describe your work I know you have your hand in various things but if you could kind of tell us a little bit about the work you do in your background.

So?nke Ahrens 03:06?

First of all thank you for having me and I'm excited about the interest. You know that's really great Anne. I'm working at the University and Essen in Germany at the moment and my main field is. Philosophy of Education I worked on philosophy of science as well so that is what I've written is a little bit informed by that, so I'm interested in thinking outside the brain and. An I'm more interested in how to use tools. For building up complex ideas. I know I put an emphasis on the book on being very productive and writing a lot, but I think. My main interest is really and how to think better and. Yeah, that's what I think about most of the time.

Tiago Forte 04:06?

Ok, excellent and could you say a bit about your coaching a few people were curious what your coaching is like whether they can be coached by You is that something that is.

So?nke Ahrens 04:17?

Yeah, yeah, it's not my main. Field at the moment, so I have little time for that in there, only a few slots and an I my background is in systems. Happy so I do counseling, but online coaching at the moment more or less exclusively on the total cost and but in the future if I'm less. I'm busy with teaching at the University. I'm certainly will do a relaunch of my website and then offer a little bit more background information on that. So if you subscribe to my mailing list. I will keep you updated on things like this.

Tiago Forte 05:08?

Ok, if someone wouldn't mind grabbing the link to his uncle's website and sticking it in the chat or is like if you have it available. I'd appreciate that. This is a collaborative exercise that where we all we all contribute as you can see OK. It's very interesting. So let's see I want to add a couple questions. I want to ask a couple of questions right here at the beginning what? Tell us a little bit about it, so we know a little bit about your background how about the background of this book among all the things your doing what? What led you to think, to to think this was really important, and necessary and what was the what was the story that led to its creation. Right well.

So?nke Ahrens 05:48?

It's partly a procrastination project so I was working on. My next book, which is still in the making and I struggled with finding the right tools and. In a way it's ironic because I worked on the theory of Nicholas Lumen for quite awhile and. I never took his practical work with settle Kirsten that serious an that is, until I really discovered that his certain way of. Thinking and being much more serious about thinking outside the brain and decentralizing the mind and trying to. Use technology and tools to improve the level of complexity that this is something that is really interconnected with the theory itself.

So?nke Ahrens 06:59?

And, of course I tinkered around with different ways of writing taking notes and my hope is that. I can spare people a lot of these mistakes I made and. To hopefully. Encourage people to take more notes. Because just taking more notes makes a huge difference, I do think that. A certain level of? And challenging yourself and your ideas, we require some kind of external brain and. That is something I thought a lot in my teaching because teaching is still not about OK how how can you challenge assumptions? How can you challenge students? How can you tell yourself an? You don't always have someone around who challenges you and taking notes can help you a lot with. Especially.

So?nke Ahrens 08:23?

Going against confirmation bias. I'm it, it reminds you of what you're actually thinking and it forces you to make it more explicit so my main? Ann hope was to provide people with improved system that can improve thinking and helps.

So?nke Ahrens 08:53?

2. To make things easier along the way because? A lot of the struggles. I had in my early days of writing is just finding things again and. Remembering. How I thought about something and only when you can compare notes you can really see a difference because your brain always adjusts to your current state of. Thinking so that was the main idea and. I also hoped to spark some.

So?nke Ahrens 09:43?

Discussion on how we organize higher education because I think that higher education is still very much stream blind. Along old ideas of. You have to have a plan in hand, you have to come up with an hypothesis first and then you do the work and this is a certain way of thinking about thinking that I. Believes is just plain wrong and. Technology can help with implementing a more open ended process that is more open to change an. And so if technology can help in that way too. Does mark a discussion about how to maybe changed various things in higher education that that would be great? When I side effect, Yeah.

Tiago Forte 10:48?

Gosh, I couldn't agree more. Amen to that? Yes. Do you teach the zettelkasten system in your classes do you train you? Students in them or do they kind of have to discover it outside of class? So um.

So?nke Ahrens 11:08?

I know one of the questions you sent me earlier that one of your view vehicles. Asked was well how do you convince students to use this system or to write more nails and? That's a tough one because the students are really no. The value of proper note, taking system are usually those who are in their final exams and have the challenge of writing the thesis and wish they had started earlier. The students who just starts so for those who would it would be the best thing to to use and usually have this mentality from school.

So?nke Ahrens 12:02?

Where you get some kind of packages and just take boxes and don't really grasp the? Importance of note taking and if you as a professor tell them that's really important. They usually think well, I'm not going to 2. The Professor and write books, so maybe that's a little bit, too much so my solution is.

So?nke Ahrens 12:35?

Spring older and young students together and let older Stevens explained the importance of helping students because they are much more believable and they know the struggles that come later in the day. Can explain to those who just start well it really is an advantage. If you start early and if you adjust the system along the way it's not so important to have a perfect system. Just write and write a lot and so some of the tutors just great in doing that, so these are. The ways of convincing students to take more notes.

Tiago Forte 13:23?

Yeah, I like it. I like it. I remind you that exercise in with investing where if you make people hunch over. And shuffle and sort of act like their old or feel what it's like to be old then suddenly, they want to invest more. They want to save more, they want to put money into their retirement accounts. It's like you're linking their present in their future self. And that changes behavior?

Tiago Forte 13:47?

I liked it alot, OK as you so, so you mentioned you. You went from from Nicholas lumens. Output is content. Work, too, is practical system as you did that what surprised you. As you really researched and got into the details of this metal casting was there anything that really kind of surprised you in that.

So?nke Ahrens 14:12?

Well. I'm not sure if there are many surprises. It's it's more that I'm still pretty much in or about the kind of output and. Then. Yeah, II mean there are theoretically questions. I'm I'm still interested in how the technology you use shapes your thinking? And the kind of theory, you can develop from there. Ann. But I think the main surprises that are many surprises. It's pretty much really the way it's described and. There is no hidden secret, so that's maybe the main surprise.

Tiago Forte 15:05?

Yeah, I notice in so many of the questions it was like you know, such detailed questions about the very specific steps exactly how you do them and it's kind of like it feels like people trying to reverse engineer you know a potion. This magical potion if they could just get the proportions just right. I will yes.

So?nke Ahrens 15:29?

An well II know the. There is a lack of step by step descriptions and. I fully understand that this is a neat and I will certainly provide something like that. And now the important part as soon as I'm fully convinced about a software that is lasting that is fully developed where I can wholeheartedly. Recommend to use it because you can only do a step by step description.

So?nke Ahrens 16:11?

When you have made a decision on the technology use or the software you use an? I mean, you don't need a step by step description. More than which is available when you write with pen and paper because the steps are there and there aren't too many? Am having said that I think there could be a misunderstanding about trying to follow a step by step process because first of all you need to adjust it to your own needs. And the book is not only read by. Academics in the social Sciences, but many are interested to work in very different fields and you need to adjust to that and my main recommendation at the moment with this. Software as it is is. Well stick with the things you're most comfortable with and. Don't try to set up a whole new system because you might end switching systems again and again and the switching cost there so. It might make sense to stick with you have and see what really works for you and where you put the emphasis really depends on your kind of work so academics certainly have much more emphasis.

So?nke Ahrens 17:42?

On. The reference system and. The literature notes that's not hugely important when you develop ideas about your business. So I would put there are much more emphasis on your project. How old is India project notes? Nb. Ok, with a hierarchy hierarchy is no problem. It just shouldn't be hard wired into the system. But you can. And be much more hierarchical with topics and subtopics when you have a clear idea about what your projects are and that is certainly true for many who are more business oriented or? Have a clear. Idea about the content they want to use so you need to adjust it a bit and that's why I think it. At least it was important in the beginning. To really explain the principles and ideas behind the system and make clear where it is different to the usual ways of.

So?nke Ahrens 19:05?

Writing and note taking so the moment. You understand the principles. You are in a very good position to build something that is your own and works. Are you? I think that works much better than trying to copy your style? That is maybe not really your field.

Tiago Forte 19:33?

Couldn't agree more so much of what you just said parallels my experience I mean, I just I went into our. Our on boarding survey, I think yesterday or the day before for our students and I looked at the question, which note taking app do you use an there was probably 3 dozen there's probably about 3 dozen different note taking apps? And so our approach has been to just sort of use the mall and 2 to do sort of a brain like a mind meld brainstorm we bring everyone together on the zoom calls just like this and we share notes. You know, I like what you said about the technology does influence the way you're thinking I found that to where someone will come up with a brilliant idea because they're using some obscur note, taking app that has some feature that few others do. That will then give them an insight, which they can then bring back to us and we can apply to our own systems. So so it is a bit of a challenge, but I'm hoping the diversity of systems and the diversity of different kinds of technology can be a could be a strength instead of a hindrance.

So?nke Ahrens 20:36?

I'm. I do think that you're right that there isn't great independence of the system. Towards the apps. You use but at the same time, I do think the technology use of the software years? Makes a difference and maybe a major one. But. At the moment I. I calmed recommend one specific that works for at least not for all the clients. I talked to. I think the software doesn't make you can make a huge difference and. So II also hope that the ongoing discussions and that there is a lot going on and development will have something bubble up that. Yeah, that combines a lot of the advantages of different tools and is less an archive. Most of the things at the moment are really, for collectors. Not so much for thinking development. It makes a huge difference if you have a low threshold of writing where you don't get distr. Stood by the software so I'm really into everything with a low threshold, and simplicity and. Where things don't get overboard about all the possible fine tuning and adjustments absolutely see what's what will bubble up.

Tiago Forte 22:24?

It's an exciting time, so just in time for the for this field. I want to ask you one more question. But then I want to get to 2 questions from others. I will so just one last thing on the steps. I'll put in the chat this Google Doc that I sent you some key, as well, which I didn't include in my original article. cause my article is more about the principles but I think I'll add this as a as an addendum to the bottom. It's basically a summary of the 8 steps. So you outlined in the book for using those little cast and if you want to refer to that or or if someone else does. That's fine, but but um. Let's let's move on to other questions for for example, the last one. I want to ask you which is. What do people get wrong about this system? What are the things that you notice they commonly misunderstand misinterpret's don't really get?

Tiago Forte 23:22?

I think. Ann.

So?nke Ahrens 23:26?

I'm not sure if that, really fits the question. But what are often see which is which was really not my intention is that people are really hard on themselves? Of not having a perfect system and my intention is to provide something that helps you too. Simplify things and make things easier and make it easier to stop when things difficult and. And now I often see the search for a perfect system, without struggle and it's almost like people now punishing themselves for that things are not that easy. And so I would like to emphasize that. Writing is still difficult and of course, there are always struggles with the organization and the question of where do I? Connect this idea to another, but that is all part of the system and. In some ways, so there's a feedback loop so in the beginning. I tended to make much too. Extensive nodes, but you realize quickly that you then don't really know. How to address this particular note so you adjusted a bit and then the next one is maybe a bit too short and so we adjusted again and. All this is not necessarily a sign that you're doing something wrong. It's just still learning curve. And I think it's important to embrace the difficulties in writing note taking understanding and. Going through difficult tax and trying to rephrase it in your own words. It's that's a challenge, but they solve the challenges worse focusing on and not getting distracted?

Tiago Forte 25:37?

That's 1 of my favorite uses of these systems. If you don't know how your note, taking system should be take notes on that right on that collect ideas on that. It's like this. This recursive process where you can just keep going into whatever is challenging you even if it's the system itself.

Tiago Forte 25:55?

I found that to be a very productive use of my notes. Let's see here OK. So I have you all sent many great questions. I'm going to sort of steer away from the more technology related ones? Because I can get into the real fine grained details of implementations and features and all these things also going to be meeting you all here. Could you provide a way to sort of some guidance on getting started for someone who has not done anything like this? Maybe they've taken some notes very ad hoc very randomly here and there. But beyond those 8 steps that you outline what would be some of the setup for the initial things that you would recommend people do.

So?nke Ahrens 26:44?

Yeah, I think. What you shouldn't do is trying to move all your notes into the system and spend time on that. It's more about. Doing it differently. And if you take old notes and integrated in the new system that's great. But just do it when you want to use them anyway. And if you feel well in the beginning, there is.

So?nke Ahrens 27:19?

2 little possibility to connect notes then try to make explicit what you already know because you never start from scratch never start from a blank page. And it can really make a difference just trying to make explicit what's already on on your mind and that gives you a little bit of structure. Which helps you to start and? Maybe just start with the projects you have and. Not having the.

So?nke Ahrens 28:00?

Well. Not everything has to bubble up from bottom. You can just start with your project with the ideas you already have and. Start with a hierarchy so aluminum set custom.

So?nke Ahrens 28:18?

Then he started with topics as he was a main areas of interest. Of course from there, it developed in different ways and. The topics became less and less important, but it can be a starting point. Just don't Hardwire. The hierarchy into your system so maybe that's 1 more general note. About how to start yeah. I want.

Tiago Forte 28:46?

To. I want to agree in highlight with 2 things you said the first is not doing massive all encompassing migrations right. In my own in my own teaching and coaching. I used to. I used to do that. I used to either sit with people in person or over calls or over weeks and guide them through these migrations and it would inevitably take of course. Just incredible amounts of time, but then also get really caught up in little details of formatting and things that didn't that weren't able to be translated over and the architecture and all these things.

Tiago Forte 29:20?

Ii now teach something that I called the digital Jubilee, which is this idea that that once a year is what I recommend if you have a bunch of disorganized notes piled up, that you just file them away. In an archive put a date on it, so you can find them. If you really need them, but essentially start over. You know, not take the bag that the organizational ordus organizational baggage from the past into the future to just to just kind of leave it behind.

Tiago Forte 29:47?

But then also what you said about not always needing to start from the bottom up. I used to. When I was would write a blog post. My first step would be to just go through hundreds and hundreds of notes and and collect material. But the problem is when if my criteria was only what is interesting? Well, everything in my note taking system is interesting that's why I saved it. So I would start off the first step of my writing my blog Post with just like. Dozens of pages of notes and then have to spend so much time calling calling calling calling to get down, and now I do more kind of what you suggested which is I start with? What do I know is the main idea? Which is always something more intuitive is something that comes instantly to mind. And then I can go through my notes with that much, tighter filter of what do I need? What is just a senchal for me to support that point so I found something similar.

So?nke Ahrens 30:39?

And looking for? Problems that that helps too because of course I mean, a lot of things are interesting. But when you start thinking about what could be your own contribution or what? Is the problem in this area it gives you some kind of focus it doesn't need to be necessarily formulated question. But. Try to. Put a finger on what bothers you what is maybe the problem here and looking for answers to to that that can be extreme? Is an extremely good filter?

Tiago Forte 31:26?

Absolutely absolutely could you talk a little bit about the principle that by far people have had the most questions on or confusion about was the one to file by context, not by subject. One person said how do you know what the first of all? What is a context? How do I know what my Contacts are and second? How do you know what your Contacts are if as you say elsewhere I you don't know what you're going to be working on in the future? How can you decide? When you'll want to see this thing again.

So?nke Ahrens 31:59?

Sure, so. Contacts and topics are not necessarily mutually exclusive of course in notes put in specific contexts can also be a contribution to a specific topic. Am what I wanted to stress here is the difference to a collection if you think about under what kind of topic do, I file this? Ann this is thinking like a collector when you ask yourself to which kind of discussion within which note sequence can this idea contribute.

So?nke Ahrens 32:39?

He much more dive into the actual content. You think about what difference this new information makes for your previous health beliefs for example. And information can only make a difference in regards to something adding something to a collection make. Of course, also different but also the difference in terms of in additional information. So context is much more on the content level topic is. Almost always more about thinking about it and when he looked for context. You want to think. Within something so you're thinking more about the difference than you information makes for what you've written before so you. You look at the content level. You're not looking at keywords, you're not looking at the index. You're thinking well is. It just an addition or is it a contradiction is messing with my previous helper lead for. This is, do I have to change what I thought before and trying to make that explicit so it's about really getting as quickly as possible. Into the content and not trying to think from a level above where you just sort stuff. This is the probably the Main.

So?nke Ahrens 34:23?

Pitfall when it comes to collecting notes and also means sorry that you might want to write the nodes. Already in dialogue with pre existing nodes, so really treating your system as a dialogue partner and answering. To the nodes you're connecting the new one with which is very different to just collecting.

Tiago Forte 34:58?

Absolutely absolutely so it seems like the context is is along the same thread as the topic. But a few steps a couple steps further down right. You think of the cycle the second order effect do you think of the consequences you think of the usage of it? Why do you think that's so hard? Why do people? Find the challenger? Why is it not natural for them to do that extra bit of thinking on that.

So?nke Ahrens 35:23?

Well, I think it's natural to treat any kind of software where you collect ideas as a kind of collection in the beginning and.

So?nke Ahrens 35:41?

I'm not sure if it's really hard, so necessarily I think it's just thinking differently because we like to collect stuff and we like to. And feel there's more and more and more and it. Seems maybe less productive. She. Calls and things. How I might have been wrong before? New information and so.

So?nke Ahrens 36:19?

I mean that that that is what interests me really. I'm not so interested in having a great output and. Just reshuffling information into new blog posts or something like that. But I'm interested in how do I discover wine wrong? We had can I? Transform if you want to previous health believes and that means spending quite a lot of time, rethinking stuff. You've already written down so maybe. That's the part which is probably a little bit less natural.

Tiago Forte 36:59?

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's very interesting. I'm I'm finding something similar. Where is something I've noticed working with people? Is people tend to read what they know already? Productivity people tenery productivity books, you know, uh engineering. People read engineering books literature. People read literature books. I had this experience going on my wife's on my wife's Facebook feed. And it was all reinforcing messages I think you can really only see it when you go on someone elses filter bubble because your own feels completely normal and natural and I just realized and then I looked on her Kindle. I was, I was just browsing through her device kind of snooping. And I looked at her Kindle. It was all books on the 3 or 4 or 5 subjects that she most likes and then I went back to my Kindle and it was exactly the same style books on exactly the topics that I already know and II feel like I've moved more towards if I'm reading a book and assessment thing. I know or agree with what's the point of highlighting it. You know if I can or if it's already part of my mental model. I can already extrapolate. It then I just don't even keep it at all only if it if it shocks me. Surprises me violates my expectations in some way even if I don't understand why.

Tiago Forte 38:10?

Then it's more more. I find myself moving that direction because it's like. I want to break them. In some model that's learning. I want to find the best attack vectors into my existing mental model.

So?nke Ahrens 38:23?

Yeah, and I think that's probably the challenge of the time at the moment because it's not that easy and that you can say, well, just be open minded if you're open minded your open main yourself up to a lot of bullshit. You don't want that you have to close yourself down, but at the same time you don't want to just repeat what you already know so it's not either being open or being close minded it's. About how do you deal with being selective in a way that still challenges you? That's tricky even to write about that. Not. Yeah, it's a challenge, but. It's an interesting one.

Tiago Forte 39:17?

Yeah, the question I would like to ask myself when II. Find myself wanting one of these positions? Is is do I want to be right or do I want to be effective? cause often I find myself I have such a such a desire to be right. All the time specially in interpersonal situations and then I asked myself OK? Do you want to be right in this situation or do you want to be effective and I usually go? I want to be? Active Dang it. I wanted to ask you about spaced repetition had a couple of questions about that. So I have kind of a beef with spaced repetition. I kind of feel like space repetition is the is the opposite of the external brain idea. It's like the external brain you're trying to offload from the human brain to the external brain. With spaced repetition in different memorization techniques are trying to get it from the external world onto your brain. What's here? Do you spaced repetition and or any memorization techniques and what's what's your take on that.

So?nke Ahrens 40:13?

I don't use any memorization technique because II don't need to memorize anything I. I don't know in which situation I need to memorize. I mean, I know. Some professions have the neat if your nectar. You need to rehearse your lines and you need to memorize them. But. Almost always the need for memorization is incomplete artificial settings within education and. In almost all cases, you can ask yourself. If you have trouble with Memorization Maybe. Try to understand it a little bit better and have more examples have more connections to other ideas to elaborate a little bit further on it. Because if you have fully elaborated on something you usually don't need to memorize it. So I'm not really interested in Memorization, having said that. I like to. I like the feeling of having things on my mind, instead of feeling forgetful and I do think that. When you have a system in place where you force yourself to.

So?nke Ahrens 41:43?

Revisit on a regular basis, old notes that's a kind of built in. Reputation or space repetition. But I wouldn't say that's an explicit memorization technique. But I do think that's this principle. That's at work here and as far as I'm. I know it's. Empirically. Quite a solid technique.

Tiago Forte 42:21?

Absolutely you mentioned before that there were there were some theoretical questions that you're still pondering one of them was how the technology influences the way you think are there any are there any current or other open questions that you can share with us or? I'm curious what the what is the frontier of your own learning in regards to this stuff?

So?nke Ahrens 42:42?

Well, one question that it's on top of my mind is what I mentioned earlier how to be open minded without getting too distracted and how to? Anne find well not a balance because balance is usually not a good idea but. Yet how to work against your biases and.

So?nke Ahrens 43:14?

Well. Dealing with. Partisanship and the filter bubbles. We encounter and if there are any. Education can help with solving that problem. Yeah, that that's 1 of the things that are more or less on top of my mind. In the earlier days. It was more how to get inside so. How what kind of environment? Do we need to make inside more likely? To change our mind in a very fundamental way, not just a superficial way. But in a very fundamental way, so I. Studied a lot of history of Science and so the externalization of ideas and thinking outside the box but.

So?nke Ahrens 44:25?

Within. The next ternal brain or within a laboratory and the difference between thinking with something and thinking within something. That is something I would like to elaborate a little bit more on.

Tiago Forte 44:46?

Excellent excellent me, too me, too, so I've covered most of the questions that were sent in previously. There's some I think that are not completely appropriate for this call but let's go to the chat. I haven't been able to keep up with the many, many messages but go ahead and. But in the chats anything that you'd like some kid to to touch on.

So?nke Ahrens 45:08?

Well, I've seen quite a lot of questions about software and apps and technologies and I mentioned earlier. I don't wanna dive into that because I think other. People have much better overview over what is available.