TED演講者：Anthony Fauci / 安東尼 · 福奇

演講標(biāo)題：Is the pandemic actually over? It's complicated / 大流行真的結(jié)束了嗎？這有點(diǎn)復(fù)雜

內(nèi)容概要："Be spreaders of facts and truths," says scientist and immunologist Dr. Anthony Fauci. Having advised seven US presidents on various disease outbreaks including COVID-19, he shares insights on the present and future of pandemics, backed up by decades of experience in public health. Hear him dive into the latest on protecting yourself from the virus, his unwavering faith in science, what he plans to do after retiring (or "rewiring") -- and soak up some hard-won wisdom for the next generation.

“成為事實(shí)和真理的傳播者,” 科學(xué)家兼免疫學(xué)家安東尼福奇博士（Dr. Anthony Fauci）說。他曾就包括 COVID-19 在內(nèi)的各種疾病爆發(fā)向七位美國總統(tǒng)提供建議，以數(shù)十年的公共衛(wèi)生經(jīng)驗(yàn)為支撐，他分享了對大流行現(xiàn)狀和未來的見解。聽他深入探討有關(guān)保護(hù)自己免受病毒侵害的最新消息、他對科學(xué)的堅定信念、他退休后（ “重新布線”）的計劃——并為下一代汲取一些來之不易的智慧。這場對話由TED科學(xué)策展人大衛(wèi)·比略主持，是 2022 年 9 月 20 日 TED 會員活動的一部分。

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【1】David Biello: In the wake of Dr. Anthony Fauci's announcement that he will be retiring as the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the end of the year,

大衛(wèi).比洛（David Biello）: 他將卸任 國家過敏和傳染病研究所所長 于年底,

【2】I've invited him to join me for a conversation on the future of the COVID-19 pandemic, reflections on his career and the future of public health.

我邀請他與我來一場對話 關(guān)于 COVID-19 大流行的未來, 他對職業(yè)生涯的反思和 公共衛(wèi)生的展望。

【3】Please welcome Brooklyn's own Dr. Fauci.

請歡迎布魯克林獨(dú)一無二的福奇博士！

【4】Anthony Fauci: Hi, David, nice to see you, thank you for having me.

AF: 你好,大衛(wèi),很高興見到你, 謝謝你請我來。

【5】DB: Thank you for joining us.

DB:感謝您加入我們。

【6】So my first question is very simple.

我第一個問題很簡單。

【7】Is the COVID-19 pandemic over?

COVID-19 大流行結(jié)束了嗎?

【8】AF: You know, David, there's a lot of misinterpretation about what the meaning of the word "over" is, it means different things to different people.

AF: 你知道,大衛(wèi),這里有很多誤解, 對于“結(jié)束”這個詞的含義, 對不同的人意味著不同的事。

【9】I'm sure you're referring to the comment made by the President a day or two ago.

我相信你指的是 總統(tǒng)一兩天前做的評論。

【10】If you're talking about the fulminant phase of the outbreak, and 3,000 to 4,000 deaths per day, that was several months ago.

如果你說的是暴發(fā)流行期, 每日死亡三千至四千人, 那是幾個月前的事了。

【11】We are much, much better off now than we were then.

我們現(xiàn)在比當(dāng)時的情形要好, 好很多了。

【12】So in that case, that fulminant phase of the outbreak is behind us.

所以從這看來, 那個疫情暴發(fā)階段已經(jīng)過去了。

【13】But as the President made very clear on the second half of his sentence, is that, which they don't seem to show, is that he actually said we still have a lot of work to do, there's still a challenge ahead, we've got to get people vaccinated.

但正如總統(tǒng)明確表示, 在他的后半句, 就是那,似乎沒有顯現(xiàn)出來, 就是他真正說的, 我們還有很多工作要做, 前面還有挑戰(zhàn), 我們還要讓人們接種疫苗。

【14】We still have a number of cases, we have 400 deaths per day.

我們還有很多病例, 我們每天有四百人死亡。

【15】That's an unacceptably high level.

這是個無法接受的高水平。

【16】So again, it depends on the semantics of what your definition is.

所以再次, 這取決于對詞意 你的解釋是什么。

【17】We don't want anyone to get the impression that we don't have a lot of work to do.

我們不想讓任何人覺得 我們沒有很多工作要做。

【18】We've got to get the level of infection considerably lower than it is.

我們必須使感染水平 比現(xiàn)在低很多。

【19】And we've certainly got to get the level of deaths lower than it is.

我們當(dāng)然要讓死亡人數(shù) 低于目前水平。

【20】So again, it depends on the semantics of what you mean by "end."

同樣,這取決于語義 你所說的“結(jié)束”是什么意思。

【21】DB: Well, let's get into those semantics then.

那么,讓我們進(jìn)入這些語義。

【22】What conditions would need to exist for the pandemic to be over?

需要具備什么條件才是大流行結(jié)束？

【23】AF: You know, that's a call that officially is made by the World Health Organization.

AF: 你知道,這是一個決定 由世界衛(wèi)生組織正式發(fā)布。

【24】You know, my colleagues and I oh, it must have been more than ten years ago, because of the lack of clarity on what a pandemic means to one person versus another,

你知道,我和我的同事 噢,那已經(jīng)是十多年前的事了, 因?yàn)槿狈γ鞔_性 大流行對一個人和 另一個人意味著什么,

【25】we wrote a paper in the Journal of Infectious Diseases in which we talked about all the different variations of interpretations.

我們在傳染病雜志上 寫了一篇論文 我們在文中討論了 所有各種不同的解釋方式。

【26】Is it a widespread phenomenon?

它是一種廣泛傳播的現(xiàn)象？

【27】Is it the widespread nature throughout the world that makes it officially a pandemic?

它全世界廣泛傳播的特質(zhì)？ 使得它正式成為大流行？

【28】Or is it widespread and accelerating?

或是它廣泛傳播并增速發(fā)展？

【29】Or is it widespread causing serious disease?

或是它的廣泛傳播 導(dǎo)致了嚴(yán)重疾病？

【30】It means different things to different people.

它對不同的人 意味著不同的事情。

【31】So rather than try and give a definition, that's my definition versus another, we should stick with what the WHO is saying.

因此,與其試圖給出一個定義, 我的或別人的的定義。 我們應(yīng)該依照 世界衛(wèi)生組織的說法。

【32】And as Dr. Tedros said, that we're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel on that.

正如譚德塞博士（Dr. Tedros）所說, 我們看到了隧道盡頭的光。

【33】So, again, you might interpret that, well, if that's the case, is it over?

所以,再一次,你可以因此解釋 如果是這樣的話,它結(jié)束了嗎？

【34】Well, again, what does "over" mean?

嗯,再說一遍, “結(jié)束”是什么意思？

【35】There's a lot of semantics there, David.

大衛(wèi),那里有很多語義。

【36】The easiest way not to confuse people is to say we still have a lot of cases, we still have 400 deaths, we only have 67 percent of the population vaccinated, we've got to do better than that.

最簡單又不迷惑人的說法是 我們還有很多病例, 我們?nèi)杂兴陌賯€死亡病例, 我們只有 67% 的人口接種了疫苗, 我們必須做得比這更好。

【37】Of those, only one half have gotten a single boost.

其中,只有一半打了一次增強(qiáng)劑。

【38】And as a nation, we lag behind other developed countries and even some low- and middle-income countries in the level of vaccinations that we've been able to implement.

作為一個國家, 我們落后于其他發(fā)達(dá)國家, 甚至一些中低收入國家, 在我們能夠?qū)嵤┑囊呙缃臃N水平上。

【39】So if you want to look it that way, we have a lot of work to do, and that's exactly what the President said.

所以,如果你從這來看, 我們有很多工作要做。 這正是總統(tǒng)所說的。

【40】DB: So speaking of vaccines, what's your advice?

DB: 說到疫苗, 你有什么建議？

【41】I know we have the bivalent available now.

我知道我們現(xiàn)在有二價的。

【42】What is your advice on which vaccines to get and when that's appropriate?

您對接種哪種疫苗有何建議? 以及什么時候合適？

【43】AF: Well, first, you've got to get your primary series.

AF: 好的,首先, 你必須接種你的初級系列。

【44】So, I mean, that's the one where I said only 67 percent of the country has gotten their primary series, which for the most part, with some exceptions, is an mRNA vaccine, either Moderna or Pfizer, given anywhere from three to four weeks apart as the primary.

就是我上面說,只有 67% 我國的人口接種了 他們的初級系列, 在大多數(shù)情況下 除了一些例外, 是一種 mRNA 疫苗,莫德納或輝瑞 作為的初級疫苗間隔 3 - 4周。

【45】Then the issue is about giving people booster shots.

然后問題是給人們注射增強(qiáng)疫苗。

【46】So right now, if you're asking a clear question, of today, with the bivalent BA.4-5 boosters or updated vaccines is a better terminology to use, they are available now throughout the country.

所以,現(xiàn)在 如果你問的是一個明確的問題 今天的, 有關(guān)二價 BA.4-5 增強(qiáng)劑 或更新疫苗 是一個更好使用的術(shù)語, 它們現(xiàn)在在全國各地都可以獲得。

【47】We've ordered 171 million doses.

我們已經(jīng)訂購了 1.71 億劑。

【48】Who should get it?

誰應(yīng)該使用它？

【49】Anyone who is vaccinated with the primary series and has not received a shot longer than two months ago should get it.

任何接種過初級系列疫苗的人 沒有打過一針 超過兩個月, 應(yīng)該接種它。

【50】So if I got my last shot, let's say in July -- August, September, two months later, you should get the bivalent.

因此,如果我最后一次接種, 假設(shè)是在 7 月、8 月、9 月, 兩個月后, 你應(yīng)該接種二價的。

【51】If you were infected three months or more ago, you should then get the updated vaccine.

如果你在三個月前或更長時間被感染, 你應(yīng)該接種更新的疫苗。

【52】Let me give you an example for clarity for the audience.

讓我給你舉個例子 為了讓聽眾清楚。

【53】I was infected in the end of June of this year, even though I had been vaccinated.

我今年 6 月底被感染了, 即使我已經(jīng)接種了疫苗。

【54】Fortunately, because I was vaccinated, I had a relatively mild illness.

幸運(yùn)的是, 因?yàn)槲医臃N了疫苗, 我的病相對比較輕。

【55】At my age, had I not been vaccinated, the chances are I could have had a real severe outcome because elderly are more prone to get severity of disease.

在我這個年紀(jì), 如果我沒有接種疫苗, 我很有可能得到非常嚴(yán)重的后果 因?yàn)槔夏耆烁菀谆忌蠂?yán)重的疾病。

【56】So if you take the end of June, take the end of July, the end of August, the end of September.

所以如果你拿六月底來算, 七月底,八月底 九月底

【57】I plan to get my updated BA.4-5 bivalent at the end of September, the first week in October.

我計劃接種更新的 BA.4-5 二價 九月底,十月的第一周。

【58】DB: I think that's a very useful advice, and actually I will be doing the same.

DB: 我認(rèn)為這是一個非常有用的建議, 實(shí)際上我也會同樣做。

【59】How are you personally navigating this stage in the pandemic?

您的個人是如何渡過 大流行的這一階段?

【60】What precautions are you taking, if any?

您采取了什么預(yù)防措施 如果有的話？

【61】AF: Well, I certainly continue to take precautions.

AF: 當(dāng)然,我當(dāng)然會繼續(xù) 采取預(yù)防措施。

【62】And I think it's important that you ask me personally that question, because people have different levels of risk of severity of disease.

我認(rèn)為你問我個人 這個問題很重要, 因?yàn)槿藗兓技膊?yán)重程度的 風(fēng)險水平不同。

【63】I am a person who is relatively healthy, but I'm at an elderly age.

我是一個相對健康的人, 但我在老年人年齡段。

【64】I'm going to be 82 in December.

12 月我就 82 歲了。

【65】So I, statistically, would have more of a risk.

所以,從統(tǒng)計上來說, 會有更大的風(fēng)險。

【66】So the precautions I take, I stay up to date on my vaccinations, number one.

所以我采取的預(yù)防措施: 我在疫苗接種上 保持最新狀態(tài),這是第一點(diǎn)。

【67】And when I go to a place that's a congregate indoor setting where there are a lot of people and I don't know the status of their infection, their vaccination or what have you,

當(dāng)我去一個室內(nèi)聚集的地方, 人多的地方, 并且,我不知道他們感染的狀況, 他們的疫苗接種或有什么病。

【68】I would, for the most part, wear a mask.

大部分情況下,我會戴口罩。

【69】When I'm with people who I know what their status is, people who are recently vaccinated or people who come in and test before they come in,

當(dāng)我知道他們狀況的人, 在一起時, 最近接種了疫苗的人, 在他們來之前進(jìn)行了測試的人,

【70】I could have a dinner in my home or in the home of a friend without any concern.

我可以在我家 或者在朋友家里吃晚飯, 沒有任何顧慮。

【71】But if I go to crowded places, certainly on an airplane, even though it isn't required any more, if I go on a prolonged or even a short airplane trip, again, because of my increased risk as an elderly person,

但如果我去擁擠的地方, 比如是在飛機(jī)上, 即使不再規(guī)定需要, 如果我去長時間 甚至是短暫的飛機(jī)旅行, 再次,因?yàn)樽鳛槔夏耆? 我的風(fēng)險增加,

【72】I wear a mask on the plane.

我在飛機(jī)上戴口罩。

【73】DB: So switching gears a little bit, or taking a step back, are consecutive pandemics kind of our new reality?

DB:稍微換一下檔, 或者停下來想一下, 連續(xù)大流行有點(diǎn)是我們的新現(xiàn)實(shí)嗎？

【74】We obviously had the monkeypox outbreak.

我們顯然爆發(fā)了猴痘。

【75】And if that is the case, how do we cope with consecutive pandemics?

如果是這樣的話, 我們要如何應(yīng)對連續(xù)的大流行呢？

【76】AF: Well, you know, we have had, probably without the general public noticing it much, we have had, in the history of our civilization, outbreaks of emerging infections, some of which turn into pandemics.

AF:嗯,你知道,我們曾經(jīng)有, 可能公眾沒有注意到太多, 在我們的文明史上, 新興感染的爆發(fā), 其中一些演變成大流行。

【77】We've had them before recorded history.

我們有史記錄之前就有過它們。

【78】We've had them in the lifetime of some of us, you and I.

我們有的在 有生之年經(jīng)歷了,你和我。

【79】We're going through one right now.

我們現(xiàn)在正在經(jīng)歷著一次。

【80】So given the fact that most of the outbreaks of new infections come from the animal-human interface, which is sometimes intruded upon, as it were, where people, either by climate change or by intruding on forests, "uninhabited by human" places in the world, you're going to get jumping of species.

鑒于大多數(shù)新感染的爆發(fā) 來自動物與人的接觸面, 它有時被侵?jǐn)_, 當(dāng)人類因氣候變化,或者侵入了森林, 世界上的“無人區(qū)”, 你會得到物種的跨躍。

【81】Or in markets where you put animals from the wild in contact with humans, which is exactly what happened with SARS-CoV-1 and highly likely happened with SARS-CoV-2.

或者在市場上, 你把野生動物放在那里 與人類接觸, 這正是 SARS-CoV-1 發(fā)生的情況, 并且極有可能 發(fā)生在 SARS-CoV-2 。

【82】We will continue to get outbreaks.

我們將持續(xù)爆發(fā)疫情。

【83】Pandemic flu generally comes from a situation where you have the animal species that harbor influenza, pigs, fowl, birds and humans together in that environment.

大流行性流感 通常來自一種情況 那里有攜帶流感的動物, 豬、家禽, 鳥類和人類一起生活 在這樣的環(huán)境中。

【84】That's how you get the bird flu that tend to challenge us a fair amount or the swine flu.

這就是你得禽流感的原因, 往往會給我們帶來相當(dāng)大的挑戰(zhàn) 或者豬流感。

【85】So the short answer to your question, David, is that we will continue to get outbreaks of new infections.

對你問題的簡短回答, 大衛(wèi), 我們將繼續(xù)爆發(fā)新的感染嗎？

【86】The critical issue is how do you prevent them from becoming pandemics?

關(guān)鍵問題是如何防止它們 成為大流行？

【87】And that's what's called pandemic preparedness, which is a combination of scientific preparedness, like we did with the rapid development of vaccines for COVID-19, which was a highly successful scientific endeavor, matched with a public health response,

而這就稱為大流行防備。 這是科學(xué)準(zhǔn)備的組合, 就像我們快速生產(chǎn) 新冠肺炎疫苗, 這是一項非常成功的科學(xué)努力, 與公共衛(wèi)生反應(yīng)相匹配,

【88】which we didn't do as well, in the public health response, because we had spread of infection in a way that we could have done better in controlling it.

我們在公共衛(wèi)生反應(yīng)中 相對來說沒有做好, 因?yàn)槲覀冇懈腥緜鞑? 我們本可以更好地控制它。

【89】DB: So speaking of that, this is not your first epidemic, but you've made historic contributions to the AIDS epidemic and now COVID-19.

DB:說到這,這不是你的第一次流行病, 但是你對艾滋病的流行做出了 歷史意義的貢獻(xiàn), 現(xiàn)在是新冠肺炎。

【90】But is there anything you wish you had done differently in those cases?

但你是否希望自己有任何事情 做得有所不同嗎？

【91】AF: Well, there always is.

AF:嗯,總是有。

【92】I mean, it's a question of when you're involved - Nobody is perfect, certainly not I or any of my colleagues.

我是說,這是一個 你何時參與的問題 沒有人是完美的, 無論是我或我的任何同事。

【93】But when you're dealing with an emerging, moving, dynamic target, which by definition is what a pandemic is, particularly if it's with a pathogen that you've never had experience with, like HIV in the very early 1980s, or the COVID-19 pandemic in the first months of 2020, you could always say, if we knew then what we know now, and there was a lot of things that we didn't know, we certainly would have done things differently.

但當(dāng)你面對一個剛出現(xiàn)的 變化 ,動態(tài)目標(biāo), 按照定義,這就是大流行, 特別如果它是一種 你從未接觸過的病原體, 就像 1980 年代初的 HIV 那樣, 或新冠肺炎大流行, 在 2020 年的頭幾個月, 你總可以說, 如果我們當(dāng)時 知道我們現(xiàn)在知道的, 那時我們有很多不知道的事, 我們肯定會做不同的事情。

【94】And that's why you have to be humble and modest to realize if you are going to be following the science, the science which gives you data and information and evidence is going to change, particularly in the early phases of the outbreak.

這就是為什么 你必須謙遜和謙虛 意識到如果你要遵循科學(xué), 科學(xué)為你提供數(shù)據(jù)、信息和證據(jù) 將會改變, 特別是在疫情暴發(fā)的早期階段。

【95】Did we know how easily it was spread from human to human?

我們知道它在人與人之間傳播有多容易嗎？

【96】Did we know that it was aerosol spread?

我們知道這是氣溶膠傳播嗎？

【97】We thought in the beginning it was like influenza, mostly droplets from a sick person.

我們一開始以為這就像流感, 主要是病人的飛沫。

【98】Did we know that 50 to 60 percent of the transmissions were [from] someone who had no symptoms at all, which clearly impacts how you approach an outbreak?

我們知道 50% 到 60% 的傳播 來自完全沒有癥狀的人嗎？ 這明顯影響了你如何應(yīng)對疫情。

【99】Did we realize that instead of the typical outbreak, where it goes up, it comes down and then you're done with it, we had no concept that you'd be seeing different waves and different variants that came along.

我們有沒有意識到, 它與典型的疫情不同, 它下來后你就完成了, 我們沒有想到你會看到不同的浪潮 以及隨之而來的不同變種。

【100】So the answer to your question, if we knew all of that from the beginning, we certainly would have done things differently.

所以你問題的答案是 如果我們從一開始就知道這一切, 我們肯定會做不同的事情。

【101】But unfortunately we didn't.

但不幸的是,我們沒有。

【102】And you try to be flexible enough and humble enough to change and modify how you approach things based on the recent data.

你努力做到足夠靈活和謙遜 改變和修正你如何處理事情, 基于最新的數(shù)據(jù)。

【103】That's not flip-flopping.

這不是改變觀點(diǎn),

【104】That is truly following the evidence and following the data.

這是真正的遵循證據(jù)和數(shù)據(jù)。

【105】DB: Right, that's just how science works, it's constantly updating and especially in a real-time situation like this pandemic.

DB:是的,這就是科學(xué)的運(yùn)作方式, 它不斷更新, 尤其是在這次大流行 這樣的實(shí)時情況下。

【106】But are there any, I don't know, specific regrets you have, something you would take back if you could?

但我不知道你有沒有什么特別的遺憾, 如果可以,你會收回的東西？

【107】AF: Well, it depends.

AF:嗯, 這得看情況。

【108】Yeah, I mean, obviously in the beginning when we were under the impression, or didn't fully realize that there was aerosol spread, we were under the impression, which was true, because we were told that, that there weren't enough masks for the health care providers.

是的,我的意思是,很明顯, 一開始我們在印象中, 或者沒有充分意識到有氣溶膠傳播, 我們就有這樣的印象,這是真的, 因?yàn)槲覀儽桓嬷? 沒有足夠的口罩供醫(yī)護(hù)人員使用。

【109】And if we started everybody hoarding masks, there wouldn't be masks available to the health care providers.

如果我們開始大家囤積口罩, 不會有口罩可提供給醫(yī)療工作者。

【110】We didn't realize that out of the health care setting, like the hospital setting, that masks were effective in preventing acquisition and transmission.

我們沒有意識到在醫(yī)療環(huán)境中 比如醫(yī)院環(huán)境, 口罩能有效防止感染和傳播。

【111】We didn't know that.

我們當(dāng)時不知道。

【112】We know it now for sure, but we didn't know it then.

我們現(xiàn)在肯定知道, 但當(dāng)時我們不知道。

【113】We didn't know that the silent spread from people who were without symptoms.

我們不知道無聲的傳播 來自沒有癥狀的人

【114】And that meant we didn't know that, while we were looking for sick people, there were many, many, many more people without symptoms that were in society spreading the infection in a way that was not detectable, below the radar screen.

這意味著我們在尋找病人時不知道, 有很多、很多、很多 沒有癥狀的人在社區(qū)中 正傳播著感染 以一種無法檢測的方式 在關(guān)注范圍以下。

【115】Had we known that, I absolutely would have said right from the beginning, everybody wear a mask all the time in an indoor setting.

如果我們知道, 我絕對會從一開始就說, 在室內(nèi)環(huán)境中, 每個人都要戴口罩。

【116】But we didn't say that then.

但我們當(dāng)時沒有這么說。

【117】It was only when it became obvious.

只有當(dāng)它變得明顯時。

【118】So if we had known that early on, we would have told people to wear a mask.

所以如果我們早就知道了, 我們會告訴人們戴口罩。

【119】However, I must say, David, given the reluctance of people to wear masks, even now that we know all that stuff,

然而,我必須說,大衛(wèi), 鑒于人們不愿戴口罩, 即使現(xiàn)在我們知道了所有這些,

【120】I'm wondering how well that would have been received if at a time when there were ten or so documented infections, if you told the country that everybody should wear a mask in an indoor setting, not so sure that would have been broadly accepted.

我仍在琢磨接受程度會怎么樣, 如果有十個左右的感染記錄。 如果你告訴國家 每個人在室內(nèi)都應(yīng)該戴口罩, 不太確定這會被廣泛接受。

【121】DB: Yeah. And this seems to be something that, the United States anyway, has been through before, with the Spanish flu and masking and then anti-mask protests.

DB:是的, 這似乎是這樣的。 反正美國也經(jīng)歷過 西班牙流感, 戴口罩和反口罩的抗議。

【122】And it seems to be in our, let's say, societal immune response to these pandemics.

它似乎在我們的,比方說, 社會對這些流行病的免疫反應(yīng)。

【123】Flipping it a little bit, how do we make sure we're not caught so, sort of, unprepared next time?

稍微翻轉(zhuǎn)一下, 我們?nèi)绾未_保下次 不會被抓得措手不及？

【124】AF: Well, you know, it's interesting, David, what you mean by unprepared, because the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health evaluated different countries' preparedness for a pandemic.

AF:你知道,這很有趣,大衛(wèi), 你所說的毫無準(zhǔn)備, 因?yàn)榧s翰.霍普金斯公共衛(wèi)生學(xué)院 評估了不同國家應(yīng)對大流行的準(zhǔn)備情況。

【125】And guess who was evaluated to be first in the world?

猜猜誰被評為世界第一？

【126】The United States of America.

美利堅合眾國。

【127】Guess who has the most deaths per population?

猜猜誰的死亡人數(shù)最多？

【128】The United States of America.

美利堅合眾國。

【129】So, you know, there's preparedness, and there's response, there's execution of your preparedness plans that we did not do so well for any of a number of complicated reasons, one of which was the fact, and is, that this outbreak occurred at a time of really profound and deep divisiveness in our own country.

所以,你知道,這是準(zhǔn)備, 而那是響應(yīng), 那是防備計劃的執(zhí)行力 我們做得不夠好。 由于許多復(fù)雜原因, 其中之一是事實(shí), 就是,這次疫情發(fā)生在 我們自己國家非常嚴(yán)重分歧的時刻。

【130】That where we had something we hadn't seen before, where political ideology played a role in whether you did or did not accept the recommended public health countermeasures, be it wearing a mask, indoor settings, quarantining, taking a vaccine, getting a boost.

在我們以前沒見過的地方, 那政治意識形態(tài)影響了, 你接受或不接受 公共衛(wèi)生所推薦的對策 無論是戴口罩, 在室內(nèi)環(huán)境, 隔離,接種疫苗,接種增強(qiáng)劑

【131】If you look at the country and look at the demography of the country with regard to ideology, there should never be that red states vaccinate much less than blue states.

如果你看這個國家 看看這個國家 在意識形態(tài)相關(guān)的人口結(jié)構(gòu), 疫苗接種量永遠(yuǎn)不應(yīng)該 紅州比藍(lán)色州少很多。

【132】There's no reason for that at all because public health risks and public health implementation should be uniform throughout.

這根本沒有理由 因?yàn)楣残l(wèi)生風(fēng)險, 公共衛(wèi)生實(shí)施應(yīng)到處一樣。

【133】And we didn't see that.

我們沒有看到。

【134】DB: Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit more because obviously, you've had to cope with an incredibly polarized response to your work in which not just ordinary citizens,

DB:是的,讓我們再談一談, 因?yàn)楹苊黠@, 您不得不應(yīng)對令人難以置信的兩極化反應(yīng)。 您的工作, 不僅是普通公民,

【135】but even politicians have called for your resignation and various other things.

但就連政客都要求您辭職, 以及其他各種事情。

【136】How do you deal with that, how do you keep your cool?

您是怎么處理的, 您是怎么保持冷靜的？

【137】You're quite cool about this.

您對此很冷靜。

【138】AF: Well, calling for your resignation is mild compared to having somebody arrested who was trying to kill you.

AF:嗯,要求你辭職是溫和的, 與逮捕某人相比 他想殺了你。

【139】So, I mean, there's a big spectrum of pushing back against public health people.

所以,我的意思是 有很多人反對公共衛(wèi)生人員。

【140】And that's one of the really unfortunate things.

這是一件非常不幸的事情。

【141】I mean, I keep my cool because that's just the nature of the kind of person that I am.

我是說,我保持冷靜, 因?yàn)檫@是本性, 我是那種人。

【142】When you're dealing with a very, very difficult situation, you've got to keep your cool.

當(dāng)你面對非常非常困難的局面時, 你必須保持冷靜

【143】I mean, I learned that in my early training in medicine.

在早期醫(yī)學(xué)培訓(xùn)中 我就學(xué)會了這一點(diǎn)。

【144】When you're in the middle of emergency, somebody is dying in front of you, you've got to keep your cool all the time.

當(dāng)你處于緊急狀態(tài)時, 有人在你面前將要死去 你必須一直保持冷靜。

【145】And that's something that's just part of my inherent training as a physician and as a person.

這只是我固有訓(xùn)練的一部分 作為一名醫(yī)生和一個人。

【146】But what we faced was well beyond that.

但我們面臨的遠(yuǎn)不止這些。

【147】I mean, public health officials, not only myself, I'm a very visible one, but many of my colleagues are being threatened and hassled and harassed, themselves and their families, the way my family is being harassed, merely because of saying things that are purely public health, common sense, tried and true principles of how to keep people safe.

我的意思是,公共衛(wèi)生官員, 不僅是我自己,我是一個非常顯眼的人 但我的許多同事都受到威脅和煩擾, 被騷擾, 他們自己和他們的家人、 我的家人被騷擾的方式, 僅僅因?yàn)檎f了些什么 純粹的公共衛(wèi)生常識, 久經(jīng)考驗(yàn)的 如何保護(hù)人們安全的真實(shí)原則。

【148】That is really extraordinary that that's going on in our country.

在我們國家發(fā)生的事情真的很不尋常。

【149】DB: Yeah.

DB:是啊。

【150】I'm also going to ascribe it to the Brooklyn upbringing.

我還要把這歸于布魯克林的培養(yǎng)。

【151】That gave you some cool, too.

這也讓你很酷。

【152】But a quick follow up, how do you, like, with all that going on, with those horrifying threats, how do you unwind from all this?

但一個快速追蹤 您是怎么,比如 所有這些都在發(fā)生, 還有那些可怕的威脅, 您是怎么從這一切中解脫出來的呢？

【153】How do you, you know, keep it together and give yourself some space to breathe?

您是怎么做到挺住的 給自己一些喘息的空間？

【154】AF: Well, I have an extraordinarily supportive family, my wife who's with me, my children are grown and live in different parts of the country.

AF:我有一個非常支持我的家庭, 我妻子和我在一起, 我長大的孩子,她們生活在國家的不同地方,

【155】But they are very supportive of me with texts and calls and knowing what I'm going through.

但她們非常支持我, 通過發(fā)短信和打電話, 知道我正在經(jīng)歷什么。

【156】So I have three daughters, which they, you know, they try to take care of their daddy, so it really helps.

我有三個女兒,你知道的, 她們盡力照顧他們的爸爸, 所以這真的很有幫助。

【157】But my wife is extremely supportive, and we do things together.

而我妻子非常支持我, 我們一起做事。

【158】I mean, I work a preposterous amount of hours a day, but every day I try to get some exercise in and it's usually a few mile walk with my wife, whether that's on the weekends very early in the morning, or during the week late at night when I come home.

我的意思是, 我每天工作的時間多得離譜, 但每天我都努力做些運(yùn)動, 通常和我妻子走幾英里, 無論是在周末的清晨, 或者在工作日的深夜 我回家時。

【159】We try to get some form of exercise in to diffuse the tension, hopefully every day.

我們試圖通過一些鍛煉 來緩解壓力, 希望每天都如此,

【160】And we're pretty successful at that.

我們在這方面非常成功。

【161】AF: Well, good for you.

DB:嗯,這對您很有好處！

【162】So you're retiring after a very long and distinguished career.

所以,您在經(jīng)歷了 漫長而杰出的職業(yè)生涯之后,即將退休。

【163】Congratulations.

恭喜！

【164】You will have successors.

你會有接班人。

【165】What lessons would you want to offer your successors based on your tenure?

您希望為您的繼任者提供哪些經(jīng)驗(yàn)教訓(xùn)？ 基于您的任職

【166】AF: First of all, I'm not retiring in the classic sense.

AF:首先,我不是傳統(tǒng)意義上的退休。

【167】As my wife, says, David, I'm "rewiring," not retiring, because I do intend to be very active.

正如我妻子所說,大衛(wèi), 我正在“重新布線”,而不是退休, 因?yàn)槲掖_實(shí)打算非常活躍。

【168】And that was one of the reasons why I stepped down at this point in time.

這也是我走下來的原因之一 在這個時間點(diǎn)。

【169】Because while I still have the enthusiasm, the energy and thank goodness, the good health to be able to do something else for the next few years,

因?yàn)楫?dāng)我還有熱情, 精力充沛,謝天謝地,身體健康, 能夠在接下來的幾年里 做一些其他的事情,

【170】I want to use the benefit of my experience of being at the NIH for almost 60 years, for being the director of the Institute for 38 years, and for having the privilege of advising seven presidents of the United States on public health issues,

我想利用我在 NIH 的經(jīng)驗(yàn) 有將近 60 年的時間 擔(dān)任研究所所長 38 年, 并有幸 為七位美國總統(tǒng)提供提供咨詢 關(guān)于公共衛(wèi)生問題,

【171】to use that experience to hopefully inspire by writing, reading, traveling, lecturing, inspiring the younger generation of scientists and would-be scientists to at least consider a career in public service, particularly in the arena of public health, and science and medicine.

希望利用這段經(jīng)歷激發(fā)寫作的靈感, 閱讀、旅行、演講, 激勵年輕一代科學(xué)家和未來科學(xué)家 至少考慮從事公共服務(wù), 特別是在公共衛(wèi)生領(lǐng)域, 以及科學(xué)和醫(yī)學(xué)。

【172】Having said that, my advice to the person who will ultimately replace me would be to focus on the science and be consistent with the science and do not get distracted by a lot of the peripheral things, the disinformation, the misinformation, the attacks on medicine and science and public health.

話說回來, 我對那最終接替我的人的建議 將是專注于科學(xué), 并與科學(xué)保持一致 并且被很多周圍事物分心, 虛假信息,錯誤信息, 對醫(yī)學(xué)、科學(xué)和公共衛(wèi)生的攻擊。

【173】Focus like a laser beam on what your job is and don't get distracted by all the other noise that's out there because there is a lot more noise now than there was a few decades ago.

像激光束一樣專注于你的工作上, 不要被外面其他的噪音所分心, 因?yàn)楝F(xiàn)在有更多的噪音 與幾十年前相比。

【174】And by noise, I mean misinformation and disinformation about science.

我所說的噪音是指 對于科學(xué)的錯誤信息和虛假信息。

【175】DB: For sure.

DB:當(dāng)然。

【176】I've definitely noticed that as the science curator.

作為科學(xué)館長, 我確切地注意到了這一點(diǎn)

【177】But pivoting a bit, let's talk about hope.

但是稍轉(zhuǎn)一下,讓我們談?wù)勏Ｍ?/p>

【178】What gives you hope about the future?

是什么讓您對未來充滿希望？

【179】Are there treatments or other things coming down the pipeline that you're excited about?

是否有治療或其他辦法陸續(xù)到來 讓您感到興奮？

【180】AF: Well, science is an absolutely phenomenal discipline.

AF:嗯,科學(xué)是一門絕對了不起的學(xué)科,

【181】It's discovery.

它是去發(fā)現(xiàn)。

【182】It's ...

它是……

【183】brand new knowledge.

全新的知識,

【184】Pushing back the frontiers of knowledge that we would not have imagined we would be in.

推動知識的前沿, 我們不會想象我們會在會在其中。

【185】If you look at medicine and science, how it's changed in a very, very positive way from the time I stepped into medical school in 1962 to the time now of the things that are available to me as a physician and as a scientist.

如果你看看醫(yī)學(xué)和科學(xué), 它是如何以非常、 非常積極的方式改變的。 從我踏入醫(yī)學(xué)院在 1962 年 到現(xiàn)在為止,我可用的東西, 作為一名醫(yī)生和科學(xué)家。

【186】I have great hope that if we continue the investments in basic and applied science, that we will be able to accomplish things in the arena of health, individual health, and public health and global health that were really unimaginable just decades ago.

我有很大的希望, 如果我們繼續(xù)投資于基礎(chǔ)和應(yīng)用科學(xué), 我們將能夠完成事情。 在健康領(lǐng)域,個人健康, 公共衛(wèi)生和全球衛(wèi)生。 就在幾十年前,這真的是難以想象的。

【187】So I have a great deal of optimism about what the future holds for science and medicine.

所以我非常樂觀 對于科學(xué)和醫(yī)學(xué)的未來。

【188】And that's the reason why one of the things I'm going to try and do in my rewired post-government life is to encourage young individuals to consider a career in medicine, science and public health, because the opportunities are really limitless.

這就是為什么我要嘗試做的一件事, 在我重新規(guī)劃的后政府生活中 鼓勵年輕人考慮從事醫(yī)學(xué)職業(yè), 科學(xué)和公共衛(wèi)生, 因?yàn)闄C(jī)會真的是無限的。

【189】We are at a stage now the likes of which people who antidated us never would have imagined the opportunities in science that we have.

我們現(xiàn)在正處于這樣一個階段, 那些以前的人 從未想象得到 我們擁有的科學(xué)機(jī)會。

【190】So I'm very optimistic about where we're going.

所以我對我們的發(fā)展方向非常樂觀。

【191】DB: Me, too.

DB:我也是。

【192】But you mentioned earlier how climate change is affecting pandemics.

但您之前提到氣候變化 如何影響大流行,

【193】What worries you about the future that we're facing?

您對我們所面臨的未來感到擔(dān)憂的是什么？

【194】AF: Well, just some of the things that you mentioned.

嗯,只是你提到的一些事情,

【195】We do have a growing element of anti-science in society.

我們的社會中 確實(shí)有越來越多的反科學(xué)因素。

【196】Disturbingly, growing in the United States.

令人不安的是, 在美國增長。

【197】And when I talk to my colleagues internationally, depending upon the country that they live in to a greater or lesser degree, there's some element of that.

當(dāng)我和國際上的同事交談時, 取決于他們居住的國家 或多或少地, 這其中有一些因素。

【198】The thing that bothers me is a denial of science and what science is showing us.

困擾我的事情 是對科學(xué)以及 科學(xué)向我們展示的東西的否定。

【199】A denial of the issues of climate and the environment, a denial of scientific principles and conspiracy theories about things that push people away.

否認(rèn)氣候和環(huán)境問題, 否認(rèn)科學(xué)原則, 以及把人推開的陰謀論。

【200】I mean, some of them are laughable, but you would be astounded, David, at the number of people who believe it.

我的意思是,有些很可笑, 但你會感到驚訝,大衛(wèi), 相信它的人數(shù)之多。

【201】That the vaccines were made by Bill Gates and I and we put a chip in it so that we could follow people around and know what they're doing and get into their head.

疫苗是由比爾.蓋茨和我制造的, 我們在里面放了一個芯片, 這樣我們就能到處跟蹤人, 知道他們在做什么并進(jìn)入他們的頭腦。

【202】The idea that there's a conspiracy, that we're making billions of dollars on vaccines, and that's why people are promoting vaccines, so that people like me and others who are public figures ...

有個構(gòu)想、有陰謀的想法, 我們在疫苗上賺了數(shù)十億美元, 這就是人們推廣疫苗的原因, 所以像我這樣的人和其他公眾人物……

【203】I mean, based on no data.

我的意思是,沒有數(shù)據(jù)基礎(chǔ)。

【204】But once it gets into the social media, it explodes and conspiracy theories explode.

但一旦它進(jìn)入社交媒體, 它炸開了,陰謀論炸開了,

【205】Even though all of the evidence proves it wrong, proving something wrong today doesn't seem to matter much.

盡管所有證據(jù)都證明這是錯誤的, 證明一些錯誤,今天似乎無關(guān)緊要。

【206】That's really strange and weird, isn't it, David?

這真的很奇怪,很怪誕, 不是嗎,大衛(wèi)？

【207】DB: Yeah, yeah.

DB:是的,是的。

【208】Well, it's, I think, an old phenomenon.

嗯,我認(rèn)為這是一個古老的現(xiàn)象。

【209】There's a famous saying that I'm going to mangle about by the time the truth gets out of the barn, the lie is halfway around the world.

有一句名言我要說, 當(dāng)真相傳出谷倉時, 這個謊言繞了半個地球。

【210】And that's definitely the world we're living in.

這絕對是我們現(xiàn)在生活的世界。

【211】I do know you have to go and, you know, finish out your tenure and then get ready for your rewiring, which I'm excited about.

我知道您要走了, 結(jié)束您的任期, 然后準(zhǔn)備好重新布線, 這讓我很興奮。

【212】I'm excited to see what's next.

我很高興看到接下來會發(fā)生什么。

【213】But do you have a last bit of advice for the public?

但您對公眾有最后一點(diǎn)建議嗎？

【214】One thing you hope everyone takes away from your time as director and your time in public health?

您希望每個人都能從 您院長任期帶走的一樣?xùn)|西 以及您在公共衛(wèi)生領(lǐng)域的時間？

【215】AF: Yeah, David, there are so many things, but I think one thing that stands out, particularly in the climate and the environment that we're in right now,

AF:是的,大衛(wèi),有太多了, 但我認(rèn)為有一點(diǎn)很突出, 特別是在氣候和環(huán)境方面, 我們正處在的

【216】is that people need to get involved in a proactive way in spreading the truth about what scientific principles are and what they mean and how they can be of great benefit to society

人們需要以積極主動的方式參與, 傳播關(guān)于什么是真正科學(xué)原則, 以及它們的含義, 以及它們?nèi)绾螌ι鐣a(chǎn)生巨大的益處,

【217】and to try and make our population more science literate than it is right now by talking about things.

并努力讓我們的人口 比現(xiàn)在更懂科學(xué), 通過討論事情。

【218】The truth, you know, the easiest way to counter misinformation and disinformation is to be enthusiastic about spreading correct information.

事實(shí),你知道,最簡單的方法 去打擊錯誤信息和虛假信息, 就是要熱心傳播正確的信息。

【219】A little bit about the metaphor that you said about the truth and lies.

關(guān)于你所說的關(guān)于真相和謊言的比喻

【220】Be spreaders of facts and truth.

成為事實(shí)和真理的傳播者。

【221】Everybody's got to be a contributor to that.

每個人都必須為此做出貢獻(xiàn)。

【222】And that's one of the things I think we can do better.

這就是其中一件我認(rèn)為 我們可以做得更好的事。

【223】DB: Yeah, I would agree.

DB:是的,我同意。

【224】And we're definitely trying here at TED.

我們正在 TED 這里嘗試這樣做。

【225】Well, Dr. Fauci, I know our members are incredibly thankful, I personally am incredibly thankful.

福奇博士我知道我們的成員非常感激, 我個人非常感激。

【226】So thank you so much for your work and for joining us today.

非常感謝您所做的工作和今天加入我們,

【227】AF: My pleasure, David, thank you so much for having me.

AF:這是我的榮幸, 大衛(wèi),非常感謝你邀請我。