龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第五期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類(lèi)社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰(shuí)的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過(guò)“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長(zhǎng)谷之水，四面而出。

羅伯特·弗魯博士（Dr Robert Frew）畢業(yè)于倫敦大學(xué)瑪麗皇后學(xué)院（Queen Mary University of London），主修物理學(xué)，后又在倫敦城市大學(xué)（City, University of London）取得藝術(shù)政策與管理學(xué)的博士學(xué)位。他主要研究創(chuàng)意產(chǎn)業(yè)中的盈利與非盈利機(jī)構(gòu)，聚焦文化藝術(shù)機(jī)構(gòu)中的管理與領(lǐng)導(dǎo)力問(wèn)題，并提出了英國(guó)主要藝術(shù)資助的新型方案。他是英國(guó)皇家特許管理會(huì)計(jì)師公會(huì)會(huì)士（Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants），也是特許全球管理會(huì)計(jì)師（Chartered Global Management Accountant）。作為一名財(cái)務(wù)管理專(zhuān)家，他是許多組織的管理顧問(wèn)，并在英國(guó)、南部非洲和土耳其幫助許多企業(yè)起死回生。他的國(guó)際職業(yè)生涯跨越了諸多領(lǐng)域，包括航空、廣播、休閑、媒體、黃金開(kāi)采、石油勘探和國(guó)際貿(mào)易。他也是一名政治活動(dòng)家，同時(shí)是英國(guó)保守黨外交和聯(lián)邦委員會(huì)的成員（Member of the Conservative Foreign and Commonwealth Council）。

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龔鵬程：您好！非常高興能訪問(wèn)到您。您讀的藝術(shù)政策與管理學(xué)，曾經(jīng)是我當(dāng)年辦學(xué)的一個(gè)理想。因?yàn)槎兰o(jì)九十年代整個(gè)中國(guó)都還沒(méi)有這種專(zhuān)業(yè)，我跟政府溝通許久，才勉強(qiáng)獲準(zhǔn)開(kāi)辦美學(xué)與藝術(shù)管理研究所。但美學(xué)研究與藝術(shù)管理其實(shí)各有重點(diǎn)，不應(yīng)這樣生硬拼和。這就顯示了大家對(duì)藝術(shù)政策與管理學(xué)的陌生，以及這個(gè)學(xué)科發(fā)展的不易。您能不能借此機(jī)會(huì)，向我們簡(jiǎn)要介紹一下英國(guó)藝術(shù)政策與管理學(xué)的情況？

羅伯特·弗魯：龔教授，您好。在英國(guó)，對(duì)藝術(shù)政策與管理而言，最重要的是數(shù)字、文化、媒體和體育部（DCMS）。

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DCMS是英國(guó)政府的一個(gè)部門(mén)。英國(guó)的藝術(shù)經(jīng)費(fèi)有多種來(lái)源，但很大一部分來(lái)自DCMS。它通過(guò)提供補(bǔ)助金或政府補(bǔ)貼的方式為藝術(shù)制定預(yù)算，這些資金由四個(gè)國(guó)家藝術(shù)委員會(huì)管理：英格蘭藝術(shù)委員會(huì)、北愛(ài)爾蘭藝術(shù)委員會(huì)、創(chuàng)意蘇格蘭和威爾士藝術(shù)委員會(huì)。這四個(gè)藝術(shù)委員會(huì)還從國(guó)家彩票中獲得資金，國(guó)家彩票是一個(gè)國(guó)家特許經(jīng)營(yíng)的彩票。藝術(shù)委員會(huì)在發(fā)放資金方面的運(yùn)作方式略有不同，但基本上它們指導(dǎo)各自國(guó)家的整體藝術(shù)政策和方向?？偟膩?lái)說(shuō)，DCMS政府機(jī)構(gòu)也會(huì)通過(guò)這些藝術(shù)委員會(huì)影響政策的方向。

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因此，整體政策是由政府通過(guò)DCMS制定的，同時(shí)向藝術(shù)委員會(huì)提供整體預(yù)算，而藝術(shù)委員會(huì)則進(jìn)一步對(duì)組織、公司和個(gè)人獲得的補(bǔ)貼或補(bǔ)助金額實(shí)施自己的政策。大部分資金被發(fā)放給英國(guó)的主要表演藝術(shù)公司，如主要的歌劇、管弦樂(lè)隊(duì)、劇院和舞蹈公司。而中小型公司和個(gè)人則可獲得數(shù)千或更少的資助。

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在英國(guó)，這些補(bǔ)貼，尤其是給大型表演藝術(shù)公司的補(bǔ)貼，完全不足以支撐公司的運(yùn)營(yíng)。因此，藝術(shù)管理部門(mén)需要付出很多努力來(lái)獲得額外的資金，特別是通過(guò)贊助、捐贈(zèng)和遺贈(zèng)。

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這與法國(guó)或德國(guó)的情況截然不同。在那里，政府對(duì)藝術(shù)的補(bǔ)貼要高得多，并能滿足藝術(shù)機(jī)構(gòu)的大部分運(yùn)營(yíng)成本。

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在英國(guó)，藝術(shù)管理更象是?"藝術(shù)行政"，重點(diǎn)是為藝術(shù)組織獲得足夠的資金以維持其償付能力。他們還需要有足夠的資金來(lái)開(kāi)展額外的非核心活動(dòng)，比如藝術(shù)委員會(huì)要求的與教育和多元化問(wèn)題有關(guān)的活動(dòng)，這是他們資金的要求，而這些活動(dòng)并沒(méi)有得到他們的全部資助。這種情況確實(shí)造成了節(jié)目制作的問(wèn)題。

Central to arts policy and management in the UK, is the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS). The DCMS is a department of the UK Government. The arts in the UK are funded from a variety of sources, but a significant amount comes from the DCMS. It sets the budget for the arts by providing funds by way of grant-in-aid or government subsidies, which are administered by four national arts councils: Arts Council England, Arts Council of Northern Ireland, Creative Scotland and Arts Council Wales. The four arts councils also receive money from the National Lottery, a state-franchised lottery. The arts councils operate slightly differently in awarding funds, but essentially they direct the overall arts policy and direction of their respective countries. Overall the DCMS government body will also influence the direction of policy through these arts councils.

So, overall policy is set by government through the DCMS?along the overall budget to arts councils, who further impose their own policies on the amounts of subsidy or grant-in-aid that ?organisations, companies and individuals receive. The majority of the funding is awarded to UK major performing arts companies, such as the major opera, orchestras, theatres and dance companies. Whilst thousands or smaller grants are available to small, medium sized companies and individuals. In the UK these subsidies, especially those given to major performing arts companies, are totally inadequate to run the company. As a consequence, much effort is required by the arts management to secure additional funds especially through sponsorship, giving and bequests.

This is very different situation to that that exists in France or Germany, where government subsidies to the arts are significantly higher and meet most of the costs of running arts organisations.

Arts management in the UK, is more like 'arts administration', in that the emphasis is in obtaining sufficient funds for arts organisations to stay solvent. They also need to have sufficient money to pursue additional non-core activities, such as activities related to education and diversity issues as required by the arts councils, as a requirement for their funds and which are not fully funded by them. This situation does create programming issues.

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龔鵬程：英國(guó)的文化創(chuàng)意產(chǎn)業(yè)特別發(fā)達(dá)，您覺(jué)得它的特點(diǎn)和發(fā)展動(dòng)力是什么？

羅伯特·弗魯：雖然創(chuàng)意產(chǎn)業(yè)包括營(yíng)利性和非營(yíng)利性藝術(shù)，但在這個(gè)問(wèn)題的背景下，我覺(jué)得我們可以認(rèn)為創(chuàng)意產(chǎn)業(yè)更多是與營(yíng)利相關(guān)聯(lián)的。數(shù)字世界和技術(shù)帶來(lái)了創(chuàng)新、新的生產(chǎn)和工作方式。這推動(dòng)軟件/游戲、廣播和電影制作公司產(chǎn)出新的大量創(chuàng)意，讓新的全球市場(chǎng)機(jī)會(huì)和盈利機(jī)會(huì)得以增多。

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然而，從文化的角度來(lái)看，我認(rèn)為在非營(yíng)利性藝術(shù)公司中存在著文化漂移，它們得到的資金不足。

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如果要說(shuō)的話，那就是英國(guó)正處于文化衰退期。歷屆英國(guó)政府所犯的最大錯(cuò)誤是不支持民族文化。民族文化被淘汰了，多元文化被納入其中——英國(guó)占主導(dǎo)地位的主流文化被擱置，藝術(shù)機(jī)構(gòu)的資金不足。

Whilst he creative industries include the profit and the not-for-profit arts,?in the context of this question, I think we can consider the creative industries as more related to being profit-based. The digital world and technology has brought innovation, new ways of production and working. This has driven a new substantial creative output from software/games, broadcasting and film production companies, providing the development of new global market opportunities and profit making opportunities. However, from a cultural standpoint, I believe there is a cultural drift amongst the not-for-profit arts companies, which receive inadequate funding. If anything, the UK is in cultural decline. The big mistake that successive UK Governments have made is in not supporting the national culture. National culture is out, multiculturalism is in - UK predominant and mainstream culture has been sidelined and arts organisations underfunded.

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龔鵬程：創(chuàng)意產(chǎn)業(yè)中的盈利與非盈利機(jī)構(gòu)，在藝術(shù)政策方面有何不同需求？其管理學(xué)最大的歧異是什么？

羅伯特·弗魯：各個(gè)部門(mén)或流派之間，并沒(méi)有太多的直接對(duì)比。但拿一個(gè)例子來(lái)說(shuō)，通過(guò)比較倫敦西區(qū)的商業(yè)劇院和其他主要的藝術(shù)資助劇院以及歌劇公司，我們可以得出一些區(qū)別。

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最大的區(qū)別在于管理風(fēng)格：西區(qū)劇院的管理層需要拿出非常賺錢(qián)的戲劇作品，以使制作公司/制作人能夠支付所有費(fèi)用，償還投資者并獲得利潤(rùn)。而與之相反的是，藝術(shù)經(jīng)理人可能更專(zhuān)注于保持傳統(tǒng)藝術(shù)形式的活力。這些經(jīng)理人很難制作新的藝術(shù)作品，以及大受歡迎的知名作品，同時(shí)還要滿足藝術(shù)委員會(huì)的非核心標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，并維持組織的財(cái)務(wù)狀況。非營(yíng)利性或政府資助的藝術(shù)部門(mén)公司的運(yùn)作基本上取決于政府的補(bǔ)貼，這對(duì)節(jié)目制作有直接影響。

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在盈利和非盈利組織中，優(yōu)秀的經(jīng)理人和領(lǐng)導(dǎo)者，基本上都有類(lèi)似的基本技能，但使命和目標(biāo)會(huì)有所不同，組織的優(yōu)先事項(xiàng)也會(huì)有所不同。

There are not so many direct comparisons one can make between the sectors or genres. But by way of an example, it is possible to draw some differences by comparing London's West End commercial theatre, with other major arts funded theatres and perhaps opera companies.

The big difference is in management style: West End theatre management need to deliver successful theatre production to enable the production company/producers to cover all costs and repay investors and make a profit. At the other end of the scale, arts managers are probably more focussed on keeping alive the legacy art form. The managers have difficulty producing new artistic works,?along with hugely popular well-known productions, whilst meeting arts council non-core criteria and keeping the organisation afloat financially. The not-for-profit or government funded arts sector companies operate essentially up to the extent of their government subsidy, which has a direct effect on programming.

Good managers and leaders, in both profit and not-for-profit organisations, will have essentially similar basic skills, but mission and objectives will be different as will be organisational priorities.

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龔鵬程：您的國(guó)際職業(yè)生涯跨越了諸多國(guó)家，也跨越了諸多領(lǐng)域，能不能分享一些經(jīng)驗(yàn)、感悟，或故事？

羅伯特·弗魯：謝謝！我有很多想說(shuō)，不過(guò)我認(rèn)為重要的問(wèn)題是圍繞著“文化”這個(gè)詞。什么是文化，多元文化的問(wèn)題，它是誰(shuí)的文化？我自己對(duì)這個(gè)問(wèn)題的簡(jiǎn)單看法是“文化”可以被認(rèn)為是一顆鉆石：這顆鉆石的晶格是由語(yǔ)言、法律、歷史和傳統(tǒng)形成的。文化鉆石定義了國(guó)家文化和身份，而在鉆石的晶格或幾何形狀中，其他文化和亞文化也可以存在。

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這些其他文化或多種文化只能在主文化的框架內(nèi)存在。如果沒(méi)有一個(gè)主要的文化晶格，所有的文化都會(huì)融合成一個(gè)混合體，有相互競(jìng)爭(zhēng)的價(jià)值觀，甚至沒(méi)有價(jià)值觀，這可能會(huì)破壞社會(huì)，造成文化混亂。

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今天，在西方，特別是在英國(guó)，我們看到了這樣一種情況，在很多人看來(lái)，政府似乎在壓制主流文化和價(jià)值觀，并提倡多元文化和新的?“喚醒議程”。這鼓勵(lì)了文化上的異議和文化上的不團(tuán)結(jié)，并允許政府采取“分而治之”的方式。毫無(wú)疑問(wèn)，西方社會(huì)正變得越來(lái)越不民主，受到更多的政府控制，同時(shí)社會(huì)也變得更加支離破碎。

Thank you!?I?have?so?much to say, however,?I?think that important questions surround the word 'Culture', what is culture, issues of multiculturalism, whose culture is it? My own brief views on this are, that 'Culture' can be considered a diamond: a diamond whose lattice is formed by virtue of language, laws, history and ?traditions. The cultural diamond defines national culture and identity, and that within the lattice or geometry of the diamond, other cultures ?and sub cultures can exist. These other or multi cultures can only exist within the framework of the main culture. Without a main cultural lattice, all cultures merge into a melange, with competing values or even no values that can break down society and create cultural disorder. Today, generally in the West and specifically in the UK, we are witnessing a situation, where it seems to many people that Government suppresses predominant culture and values, and promotes multiculturalism and the new 'Woke agenda'. This encourages cultural dissent and cultural disunity, and allows for a 'divide and rule' style of government. There is no doubt that Western society is becoming less democrat, subject to more government control whilst society becomes more fragmented.

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龔鵬程：您也是一位杰出的政治人物，您從政，最主要的關(guān)注點(diǎn)或主張是什么？

羅伯特·弗魯：我在互聯(lián)網(wǎng)上提出了一系列主題的政治問(wèn)題。我最近在網(wǎng)上發(fā)表了一篇題為?“BBC還是BBC PLC？：政府政策需要澄清 ”的文章，試圖探討政府將BBC私有化的意圖。

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我現(xiàn)在關(guān)注的主要問(wèn)題是改寫(xiě)英國(guó)歷史和文化史的趨勢(shì)，無(wú)論它是好是壞，都是以犧牲英國(guó)主流文化為代價(jià)：即英格蘭、蘇格蘭、威爾士和北愛(ài)爾蘭的主流文化。

I raise political issues on a range of subjects on the Internet. My latest on-line article entitled ' BBC or BBC PLC ?: Government Policy Needs to be Clarified' sought to explore the Government's intention to privatise the BBC. The main concerns I have right now, is the trend to rewrite some of Britain history, cultural past, whether it was good or bad, at the expense of the predominant mainstream cultures of the UK: that is of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

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龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書(shū)院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門(mén)等地舉辦過(guò)書(shū)法展?，F(xiàn)為美國(guó)龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。