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【英翻】QA問答:長久以來,西方為何如此成功?

2020-08-05 16:25 作者:龍騰洞觀  | 我要投稿

正文翻譯

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Source: Over 2,000 Years of Economic History in One Chart

一圖概括兩千年來的人類經(jīng)濟(jì)史

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Two guys set out to do exactly this. One was the Portuguese Vasco da Gama, who actually did reach India, and loaded his boat full of spices back home. He proceeded to load up on black pepper, cinnamon, and nutmeg, setting up a couple of pirate stations,until he was driven out by the Spanish, the Dutch, and the British, who did the serious work of massacring entire islands worth of the local people to claim exclusive ownership of the spice. Nobody appeared to have thought about just buying a couple of seedlings and try to grow the plant themselves. It was some seriously messed way to get one’s hand on nutmeg, something that basically grows like weed in any tropical environment.

兩個(gè)家伙正整裝出發(fā),就是為了這一目的。其中一個(gè),就是葡萄牙人瓦斯科·達(dá)·伽馬(Vasco da Gama),他成功抵達(dá)了印度,并滿載香料而歸。此后他更開始大量販運(yùn)黑胡椒、肉桂和肉豆蔻,并在航運(yùn)線路上建立了好幾個(gè)非法站點(diǎn),直到他最終被西班牙人、荷蘭人和英國人趕跑;而后面這幾位更是非?!扒诳臁钡赝缆玖艘蛔鶏u嶼,清洗了島上居民,然后宣稱獨(dú)占這些香料產(chǎn)地!似乎他們當(dāng)中就沒人想過要買幾顆香料樹苗,帶回去自己種……這真的是一種為得到這些香料的非常病態(tài)的手段,尤其是肉豆蔻——要知道它們在任何熱帶環(huán)境中都能像野草一樣生長。

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Source: Da Gama Discovers a Sea Route to India

達(dá)·伽馬發(fā)現(xiàn)通往印度的海上航線

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Starting then was a process of massive wealth transfer and wealth concentration, from the rest of the globe to Europe. Spanish treasure fleet It was amazing. The Dutch got the Manhattan Island from the local Indians for $24 dollars. The European migrants got vast fertile farmlands for free. Gold, precious stones, spices, all made their way across the ocean to Europe. I mean, if you can have Manhattan for $24 bucks like the Dutch did, and get the state of Wisconsin for free like the Brits did, you’d be as rich as Rockefellers too. Mr. Trump just got a tiny portion of Manhattan from Daddy. Look where he is now.

從那時(shí)起,全世界財(cái)富就開始了從其他地區(qū)向歐洲大規(guī)模轉(zhuǎn)移和集中的過程。神奇的“西班牙珍寶船隊(duì)”;荷蘭人用大約僅值24美元的物品從當(dāng)?shù)赜〉诎踩耸种匈I下曼哈頓島;歐洲移民免費(fèi)獲得大片肥沃農(nóng)田;黃金、寶石、香料,源源不斷地經(jīng)大洋運(yùn)往歐洲……我想說的是,如果你能像荷蘭人那樣花24美元買下曼哈頓,像英國人那樣免費(fèi)得到威斯康星州,你當(dāng)然就能像洛克菲勒一樣富有、一樣“成功”。特朗普先生不過是從他父親那里得到了曼哈頓的一小片(地皮),看看現(xiàn)在的他。
而這一切的過程,無疑都是丑陋和血腥的。在美洲,亞洲和非洲,原住民得到的只有災(zāi)難。美洲的瑪雅人和阿茲特克人、印度的眾多王國、東南亞的高棉帝國、非洲的馬里人以及其他無數(shù)的古老文明,全被徹底消滅,他們曾經(jīng)的國土上只剩殘破的石垣。再看看這個(gè):三角貿(mào)易-維基百科(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_trade)

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It was indubitably ugly and bloody because the locals in the Americas, in Asia, and in Africa got destroyed. The ancient civilizations such as the Mayans and the Aztecs in the Americas, the multitude of kingdoms in India, the Khmer empire in south east Asia, the Malis in Africa, and countless others, all gone up in smoke, with only the ruined stones on the ground, and the gold plating peeled off and shipped to Europe. Triangular trade - Wikipedia
But the concentration of wealth seeded the growth of middle class in Europe, which in turn permitted an army of young, bright minds to get an education and then engage in science and technology development, without the constant struggle for survival. Einstein, Madam Curie, Linus Pauling, … these were all educated by government-funded public colleges and universities, without which none of them would be anywhere. What, do you serious expect the Windsors or the Habsburgs to, eh, discover new laws of physics or chemistry? They are not that smart. Have NEVER been that smart. No. The backbone of scientific discovery is the army of middle-class kids. They formed the basis for the 400-year-long Scientific Revolution. The middle-class nerds made those happen, over a much longer time period, because science is very much sequential - meaning you absolutely can’t get to Z until you first get to A, then work hard to get to B, then work hard to get to C,… all the way to Z. Painstaking, frustrating, boring, long and hard! But that’s where MODERNIZATION truly comes from.

財(cái)富的集中孕育了歐洲中產(chǎn)階層的茁壯成長,又進(jìn)一步滋養(yǎng)了一代又一代年輕聰明的人口接受教育,然后從事科技研發(fā)而不必掙扎于糊口謀生。愛因斯坦、居里夫人、萊納斯·鮑林……他們都是在政府資助的公立大學(xué)或?qū)W院接受教育的,沒有這些大學(xué)和學(xué)院,就不會(huì)有他們的成就。要不然,難道你想讓溫莎公爵夫婦或者哈布斯堡夫婦去發(fā)現(xiàn)什么物理化學(xué)定律?他們可沒那么聰明,從來沒有過。不!科學(xué)發(fā)現(xiàn)的支柱,是中產(chǎn)階級(jí)子女這一人口大軍。是他們構(gòu)成了長達(dá)400年科技革命的基礎(chǔ)。在很長一段時(shí)間里,所有這些事情(科技進(jìn)步)都要?dú)w功于那些中產(chǎn)階層的“書呆子”們——因?yàn)榭茖W(xué)是非常循序漸進(jìn)的——也就是說,在你首先發(fā)現(xiàn)a,然后努力找到b,發(fā)現(xiàn)c……之前,你是不可能一步登天找到z的。科技工作辛苦,壓抑,無聊,漫長,艱難!但這才是現(xiàn)代化的真正源泉。

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But after 500 years, this once-in-a-life-time disturbance is receding, and the rest of the globe is catching up, re-balancing. With a LOT LESS BLOODSHED than when the wealth was concentrated 500 years ago. It turned out that the children of those slaughtered natives are just as intelligent and capable as the Europeans.
Source: globalinequality
From the look of it, there aren’t a lot of time left for Generation Three to be pounding out these kinds of questions on the keyboard. better hurry then!

但是,500年后的今天,這種“千年一回狗*運(yùn)”級(jí)的失衡正在消退,其他地區(qū)國家正在迎頭趕上,世界正在重新平衡。與500年前那次財(cái)富集中相比,這回流的血要少得多。而事實(shí)證明,那些當(dāng)年被歐洲人屠殺的原住民/當(dāng)?shù)厝说暮蟠?,其?shí)和歐洲人一樣聰明能干。
看樣子,留給“第三代”西方人的時(shí)間真的不多了——瞧瞧他們敲著鍵盤提的都是些什么問題——趕緊振作起來吧!

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評(píng)論翻譯

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Agnidipto Giri
The age of discovery WAS important , that's what help them build better weapons to butcher natives.

地理大發(fā)現(xiàn)當(dāng)然重要,正是這些“大發(fā)現(xiàn)”幫助他們制造出了更好的武器,然后用來屠殺原住民。

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Lynn Elizabeth Lytton
An old British rhyme:
“Whatever happens, we have got/ The Maxim gun, and they have not.”

一句古老的英國韻文:“做了什么都別怕,只要口徑比人大!”

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Rod Willett
Good answer and I loved the way you phrased the importance of the emergence of the middle class. Spices got them there, gold paid for it, even if it did wrech the Spanish economy. But it was the Caribbean sugar plantations which financed the industrial revolution, and really made England and Europe great.

回答得真好,我特別喜歡答者對(duì)中產(chǎn)階級(jí)崛起重要性的描述。他們(西方人)為香料而來,得到的卻是黃金,即使這到頭來反而毒害了西班牙的經(jīng)濟(jì)。但正是加勒比海蔗糖種植園,為工業(yè)革命提供了資金,才使得英國乃至整個(gè)歐洲真正偉大起來。

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Rod Willett
Queen Elizabeth played a part in the emergence of a relatively large English middle class because of the way she used the already growing towns as a foil against the large landowners. They were an important tax base for her, but her policies also diverted considerable wealth to the towns and allowed them to take full advantage of their position during the age of exploration, and the ensuing economic expansion.

英國能產(chǎn)生一個(gè)相對(duì)規(guī)模更大的中產(chǎn)階級(jí),伊麗莎白女王在其中扮演了重要角色。她利用已經(jīng)發(fā)展起來的城鎮(zhèn),去對(duì)抗當(dāng)時(shí)英國的大地主階級(jí),因?yàn)閷?duì)她來說,這里是一個(gè)重要的國家稅收來源。但她的政策同時(shí)也將相當(dāng)多的財(cái)富轉(zhuǎn)移到了這些城鎮(zhèn),使它們能夠充分利用地里大發(fā)現(xiàn)以及隨后的經(jīng)濟(jì)擴(kuò)張期快速擠占有利地位。
------------3 單個(gè)跟評(píng)------------

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Benjamin Hoffman
Answers like this seem more like self-shaming or West-shaming than actual, factual answers. There are other factors that made the West unique and allowed them to dominate large empires and also have massive economic growth beyond just murdering countless numbers of native peoples around the globe.
Relatively liberal governments, capital and private investments, scientific advancements, and population growth all played a role. You can be apologetic for the actions of your ancestors without minimizing their accomplishments.
Good day!

像這類作答,似乎更像是要進(jìn)行自我羞辱或羞辱西方,而不是真正地?fù)?jù)實(shí)回答問題。還有其它許多因素造成了西方的獨(dú)一無二,使他們能夠征服一個(gè)個(gè)龐大帝國,催生空前的經(jīng)濟(jì)增長——可不僅僅是因?yàn)橥罋⒘巳驘o數(shù)土著這么簡單。
相對(duì)自由開明的政府治理,資本主義和私人投資,科技進(jìn)步和人口增長都發(fā)揮了重要作用。你可以為你祖先的行徑感到抱歉,但沒有必要把他們的成就貶低到一文不值。祝好運(yùn)!

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John Jeglon
This is beyond retarded and is little more then white guilt at play.
By the time of the Age of Exploration, the West was technologically superior to most of the world with the exception of China. They had the Printing Press, gunpowder firearms, secular nationstates such as France/England and a generally more openminded vision of religion.
Meanwhile Native America still used spears, had no firearms, practiced child sacrifice and the Aztecs started religious wars to slaughter innocent people .
The Ottoman Empire was also stagnant/declining by this point.
This attempt to downplay the West's achirvements by going “You pillaged lands!” is not just wrong, but a perpetuation of a laughable myth to push white guilt down our throats.
The West conquered the world for a reason, and its not because of pillaging or oppression, but because we were simply smarter then you and still are to this day. Hell, the alleged achievements of other non-European nations of the modern era entirely came because they copied our ideologies. White guilt needs to end.

這個(gè)作答簡直智障!而且已經(jīng)有點(diǎn)突破“白人負(fù)疚感/原罪論”的范疇了。
到地里大發(fā)現(xiàn)時(shí)代,西方在技術(shù)上已經(jīng)超越了除中國以外世界大多數(shù)國家。此時(shí)西方人已經(jīng)掌握了印刷術(shù)、火藥火器,形成了如法蘭西/英格蘭這樣的世俗化國家,并擁有普遍更加開明開放的宗教觀。
與之相比,美洲原住民還在使用長矛,沒有火器,用孩童進(jìn)行獻(xiàn)祭,阿茲特克人還會(huì)發(fā)動(dòng)宗教戰(zhàn)爭屠殺無辜平民。
在這一時(shí)期,奧斯曼帝國同樣是停滯不前。
你這種試圖用“你們掠奪了土地”來淡化西方成就的企圖,不僅錯(cuò)誤,更是一種可笑迷思的延伸,就是要強(qiáng)迫我們接受“白種人負(fù)疚感/原罪論”。
西方征服世界是有原因的,不是因?yàn)槁訆Z或者壓迫,而是因?yàn)楫?dāng)時(shí)我們就是比別人聰明,且這一條至今適用。見鬼,當(dāng)代那些非歐洲國家所謂的成就,完全是因?yàn)樗麄冋瞻崃宋覀兊挠^念體系。所謂“白人負(fù)疚感/原罪論”應(yīng)該到此為止了。

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Mithur Sheridan
Excellent answer!!! Is a pleasure to read someone that don’t just read history, but is able to interpret it!
I’ll just add that the Spanish gold did a lot more for the rest of Europe than for Spain. Spain, inundated by gold, became a very hard place to live for the common men. Inequality raised to maximum levels, and progress was thwarted by that.
It institutionalized such a incredibly powerful nobiliary class that was able to content a bit the bourgeoisie class in the 19th century, which was bad for progress, and that we are still suffering (to a much minor point) even today. The only advantage of this is that, in its ineptitude, it allowed for an early, and more humane, decolonization progress than the mess that other potencies did after WWI.
I understand, though, that all this is a bit out of scope of the question.

精彩的作答?。?!閱讀一位不只是懂歷史,還懂得如何講述歷史的答者作答,真是一種樂趣!
我想補(bǔ)充一點(diǎn),就是西班牙掠奪來的黃金,對(duì)歐洲其它國家產(chǎn)生的作用還要遠(yuǎn)大于對(duì)西班牙自己。當(dāng)年被金銀財(cái)寶淹沒的西班牙,很快就成了平民無以生存之地,不平等程度達(dá)到了前所未有的水平,這直接阻礙了西班牙的進(jìn)一步發(fā)展。
它使得西班牙國內(nèi)一個(gè)權(quán)勢熏天的貴族階級(jí)得到了徹底的制度化加強(qiáng),直到19世紀(jì),他們?nèi)杂胸?cái)力給予西班牙資產(chǎn)階級(jí)一些甜頭讓其滿足——這對(duì)社會(huì)進(jìn)步?jīng)]有任何好處。即便到了今天,我們西班牙人仍在為此受苦(盡管程度變輕了)!這種貴族固化帶來的唯一好處,可能就是因?yàn)樗侨绱藷o能,從而不得不更早、更人道地接受了(西班牙)去殖民化進(jìn)程,而沒有出現(xiàn)其它列強(qiáng)在一次世界大戰(zhàn)后的那種混亂。
當(dāng)然,我知道這有點(diǎn)跑題了。

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Elias Azrak
“The Ottomans closed it in 1453! For no good reason!”
You might call the Iberian Peninsula Reconquista which is the longest war ever fought (781-years) as “no good reason”. It was the sanctions applied by the Ottomans against European powers for the treatment that Muslims were getting. Very similar to the sanctions today the US is imposing on a number of countries starting from Syria, to Venezuela to Iran to Russia or China, with further sanctions that might be about to fall on Turkey, Germany and a number of other nations. In the end, Ottomans could not help their Co-religionists hold on to their Al-Andalus real estate and even worse this ended up giving naval superiority to the Spanish and the Portuguese. If history teaches anything, US sanctions imposed on other countries are going to cause an adverse effect at some point in the future: and one has to look no further than the de-dollarization trend of these countries.

“奧斯曼帝國在1453年關(guān)閉了它(絲綢之路)!卻根本沒什么大不了的理由!”
你或許可以把伊比利亞半島上(西班牙/葡萄牙人對(duì)阿拉伯人)的再征服運(yùn)動(dòng)(亦稱“收復(fù)失地運(yùn)動(dòng)”)——這一有史以來最漫長的戰(zhàn)爭(持續(xù)了781年)看作是那個(gè)“沒什么大不了的理由”。關(guān)閉絲綢之路,正是奧斯曼帝國對(duì)歐洲列強(qiáng)實(shí)施的制裁!以報(bào)復(fù)穆斯林所遭受的待遇。這和今天美國對(duì)一系列國家實(shí)施的制裁非常類似,不論是對(duì)敘利亞還是委內(nèi)瑞拉、伊朗、俄羅斯或中國,(美國)進(jìn)一步的制裁還可能落在土耳其、德國等其他一些國家頭上。
然而最終,奧斯曼人還是沒能幫助他們的穆斯林兄弟保住安達(dá)盧斯(Al-Andaluz,指阿拉伯和北非穆斯林統(tǒng)治下的伊比利亞半島和塞蒂馬尼亞)不動(dòng)產(chǎn)。更糟糕的是,它的制裁最終催生了西班牙和葡萄牙的海上優(yōu)勢。如果我們能從歷史中學(xué)到什么的話,那就是今天美國動(dòng)輒對(duì)他國發(fā)動(dòng)的制裁,或許會(huì)在未來某個(gè)時(shí)候害到美國自己:不妨關(guān)注一下這些國家的去美元化趨勢。

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Rory Fellowes
Really excellent explanation of the truth of Western wealth and power i.e. robbery and murder on a vast scale. The arrogance of Europeans has always been staggering, but at last, with the many benefits of their brilliant scientific and economic advances made available to everyone, the rest of the world is catching up and, more to the point, catching on!!

答者很好地解釋了西方的財(cái)富和權(quán)力是如何得來的真相——即大規(guī)模劫掠和屠殺。歐洲人的傲慢自大總是令人震驚,但最終,隨著他們的科學(xué)和經(jīng)濟(jì)進(jìn)步帶來的好處開始外溢,世界其他國家正在抓住機(jī)會(huì)不斷追趕——說得再準(zhǔn)確點(diǎn),趕超正在發(fā)生??!


【英翻】QA問答:長久以來,西方為何如此成功?的評(píng)論 (共 條)

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