The following is a conversation with Michael Stevens, the creator of Vsauce, one of the most popular educational YouTube channels in the world, with over 15 million subscribers and over one point seven billion views. His videos often ask and answer questions that are both profound and entertaining, spanning topics from physics to psychology. Popular questions include what if everyone jumped at once or what if the sun disappeared or why are things creepy Or what if the earth stopped spinning As part of his channel, he created three seasons of minefield, a series that explored human behavior. His curiosity and passion are contagious and inspiring to millions of people. And so as an educator, his impact and contribution to the world is truly immeasurable.

以下是與 Vsauce 的創(chuàng)始人 Michael Stevens 的對(duì)話，他是世界上最受歡迎的教育 YouTube 頻道之一，擁有超過 150 百萬訂閱者和超過 10 億 views。他的視頻經(jīng)常提出深刻而有趣的問題，涵蓋從物理學(xué)到心理學(xué)的各種主題。其中最受歡迎的問題包括：如果每個(gè)人都跳一起會(huì)發(fā)生什么？如果太陽消失會(huì)發(fā)生什么？為什么有些事情讓人感到詭異？或者地球停止自轉(zhuǎn)會(huì)發(fā)生什么？作為頻道的一部分，他創(chuàng)造了三季的“陷阱”系列，探索人類行為。他的好奇和熱情可以傳染，激勵(lì)數(shù)百萬人。作為一名教育工作者，他對(duì)世界的影響和貢獻(xiàn)是無法估量的。

And now here's my conversation with Michael Stevens. One of your deeper interests is psychology, understanding human behavior. You've pointed out how messy studying human behavior is, and that it's far from the scientific rigor of something like physics, for example. How do you think we can take psychology from where it's been in the 20th century to something more like what the physicists, theoretical physicists are doing, something precise, something rigorous Well, we could do it by finding the physical foundations of psychology, right If all of our emotions and moods and feelings and behaviors are the result of mechanical behaviors of atoms and molecules in our brains, then can we find correlations Perhaps like chaos makes that really difficult and the uncertainty principle and all these things. We can't know the position and velocity of every single quantum state in a brain, probably. But I think that if we can get to that point with psychology, then we can start to think about consciousness in a physical and mathematical way. When we ask questions like, well, what is self-reference How can you think about your self-thinking What are some mathematical structures that could bring that about There's ideas of, in terms of consciousness and breaking it down into physics, there's ideas of panpsychism where people believe that whatever consciousness is, is a fundamental part of reality. It's almost like a physics law. Do you think what's your views on consciousness Do you think it has this deep part of reality or is it something that's deeply human and constructed by us humans Starting nice and light and easy.

下面是我和 Michael Stevens 的對(duì)話。你更深入的興趣是心理學(xué)，理解人類行為。你指出研究人類行為非常困難，并且它遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)不像物理學(xué)那樣具有科學(xué)嚴(yán)謹(jǐn)性。你認(rèn)為我們?nèi)绾螐?0世紀(jì)的水平轉(zhuǎn)移到像物理學(xué)家、理論物理學(xué)家那樣精確、嚴(yán)謹(jǐn)?shù)臓顟B(tài)？我們可以找到心理學(xué)的物理基礎(chǔ)，right？如果我們所有的情感、情緒、感覺和行為都是大腦機(jī)械行為的結(jié)果，那么我們能否找到相關(guān)性，例如 chaos 可能會(huì)非常困難，不確定性原理和所有這些東西。我們可能不知道大腦每個(gè)量子狀態(tài)的確切位置和速度，大概。但是，我認(rèn)為如果我們能夠到達(dá)心理學(xué)這種狀態(tài)，我們可以開始用物理和數(shù)學(xué)的方式思考意識(shí)。當(dāng)我們問，什么是自我意識(shí)？你如何思考自己的自我意識(shí)？有哪些數(shù)學(xué)結(jié)構(gòu)可以帶來這些？有關(guān)于意識(shí)的想法，將其從物理學(xué)拆分，有存在主義物理學(xué)，其中人們相信，無論意識(shí)是什么，都是現(xiàn)實(shí)世界的基本原理。它幾乎就像物理學(xué)定律一樣。你認(rèn)為你的自我意識(shí)觀點(diǎn)是什么？你認(rèn)為意識(shí)有現(xiàn)實(shí)世界的深度嗎？還是它是人類構(gòu)建的？

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Yeah, easy. Nothing I ask you today has actually proven answer, so we're just hypothesizing. So yeah, I mean, I should clarify, this is all speculation. Yeah, you're not a doctor. And I'm not an expert in any of these topics and I'm not God. But I think that consciousness is probably something that can be fully explained within the laws of physics. I think that our, you know, bodies and brains and the universe and at the quantum level is so rich and complex. I'd be surprised if we couldn't find a room for consciousness there. And why should we be conscious Why are we aware of ourselves That is a very strange and interesting and important question. And I think for the next few thousand years, we're going to have to believe in answers purely on faith. But my guess is that we will find that, you know, within the configuration space of possible arrangements of the universe, there are some that contain memories of others. Literally, Julian Barber calls them time capsule states where you're like, yeah, not only do I have a scratch on my arm,

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是的，很容易。我今天所提出的問題并沒有實(shí)際證明答案，因此我們只是在假設(shè)。所以是的，我需要澄清一下，這所有的都是猜測。你不是一個(gè)醫(yī)生，我也不是這些話題的專家，我也不是上帝。但我認(rèn)為意識(shí)可能是在物理學(xué)定律的范圍內(nèi)完全解釋的東西。我認(rèn)為我們的身體和大腦以及宇宙在量子層面上非常豐富和復(fù)雜。我們可能會(huì)驚奇地發(fā)現(xiàn)意識(shí)沒有在這找到一片空間。我們?yōu)槭裁匆庾R(shí)，我們?yōu)槭裁匆庾R(shí)到自己。這是一個(gè)非常奇怪且有趣且重要的問題。我認(rèn)為在未來的幾千年里，我們將不得不純靠信仰相信答案。但我猜我們會(huì)在宇宙的可能排列空間中找到一些包含其他人的記憶。literally,Julian Barber把它們稱為時(shí)間膠囊狀態(tài)，就是你比如說，嗯，不僅我手臂上有擦傷 but also this state of the universe also contains a memory in my head of being scratched by my cat three days ago. And for some reason, those kinds of states of the universe are more plentiful or more likely. When you say those states, the ones that contain memories of its past or ones that contain memories of its past and have degrees of consciousness. Just the first part, because I think the consciousness then emerges from the fact that a state of the universe that contains fragments or memories of other states is one where you're going to feel like there's time. You're going to feel like, yeah, things happened in the past. And I don't know what will happen in the future because these states don't contain information about the future.

但也是那種宇宙中的狀態(tài)，在我的腦海中也包含了被貓撓傷的記憶。由于某種原因，這些宇宙中的狀態(tài)更加普遍或更加可能。當(dāng)你提到這些狀態(tài)時(shí)，它們是包含過去記憶的或具有過去意識(shí)的狀態(tài)的，只是第一種狀態(tài)，因?yàn)槲艺J(rèn)為這是意識(shí)產(chǎn)生的原因在于宇宙中包含碎片或其他狀態(tài)的記憶，它會(huì)讓人感覺時(shí)間存在。你會(huì)感覺，是啊，事情發(fā)生在過去。我不確定未來會(huì)是什么樣子，因?yàn)檫@些狀態(tài)中沒有關(guān)于未來的信息。

For some reason, those kind of states are either more common, more plentiful, or you could use the anthropic principle and just say, well, they're extremely rare, but until you are in one or if you are in one, then you can ask questions like you're asking me on this podcast. Why questions But yeah, it's like, why are we conscious Well, because if we weren't, we wouldn't be asking why we were. You've kind of implied that you have a sense, again, hypothesis theorizing that the universe is deterministic.

某些情況下，這些狀態(tài)可能更加普遍、更加充足，或者你可以使用奧卡姆剃刀原理，簡單地表示它們非常罕見，但直到你處于其中或如果你處于其中，你就可以像在這 Podcast 上問我這些問題一樣提出問題。為什么？就像問我們?yōu)槭裁从幸庾R(shí)的一樣，因?yàn)槲覀內(nèi)绻皇怯幸庾R(shí)的，就不會(huì)問我們?yōu)槭裁从幸庾R(shí)的。你似乎在暗示你有這種感覺，再次假設(shè)宇宙是決定論的。

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?What's your thoughts about free will Do you think of the universe as deterministic in a sense that it's unrolling a particular, like there's a, it's operating under a specific set of physical laws and when you have to set the initial conditions, it will unroll in the exact same way in our particular line of the universe every time. That is a very useful way to think about the universe. It's done us well. It's brought us to the moon. It's brought us to where we are today.

你對(duì)自由意志的看法是什么？你認(rèn)為宇宙是確定性的嗎？宇宙是否在某種意義是離散的，就像展開一條特定的路徑，它運(yùn)行在特定的物理定律下，當(dāng)你需要設(shè)置初始條件時(shí)，它會(huì)在我們宇宙中的特定路徑上以相同的方式展開。這是一個(gè)非常有用的宇宙思考方式。它讓我們做得很好。它讓我們到達(dá)月球。它讓我們到達(dá)今天我們所處的位置。

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Right. I would not say that I believe in determinism in that kind of an absolute form, or actually I just don't care. Maybe it's true, but I'm not going to live my life like it is. What in your sense, cause you've studied kind of how we humans think of the world. What's in your view is the difference between our perception, like how we think the world is and reality. Do you think there's a huge gap there Like we dilute ourselves that the whole thing is an illusion, just everything about human psychology,

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對(duì)。我不可以說我相信那種絕對(duì)的determinism，或者實(shí)際上我根本不關(guān)心。也許這是真的，但我不會(huì)按照它的生活方式生活。在你看來，這是什么原因，因?yàn)槟阊芯咳祟悓?duì)世界的看法。在你看來，這是我們對(duì)世界的感知，就像我們對(duì)現(xiàn)實(shí)和世界的看法。你認(rèn)為是否存在巨大的差距？就像我們會(huì)覺得自己被這個(gè)幻覺所稀釋，所有關(guān)于人類心理學(xué)的事情。

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?the way we see things and how things actually are in all the things you've studied, what's your sense How big is the gap between reality Well, again, purely speculative. I think that we will never know the answer. We cannot know the answer. There is no experiment to find an answer to that question. Everything we experience is an event in our brain. When I look at a cat, I'm not even, I can't prove that there's a cat there. All I am experiencing is the perception of a cat inside my own brain. I am only a witness to the events of my mind. I think it is very useful to infer that if I witness the event of cat in my head,

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我們所看到事物和它們實(shí)際的樣子，以及你研究的所有事物中，你的感受是什么，差距有多大。

再次，這只是純粹的猜測。我認(rèn)為我們永遠(yuǎn)不會(huì)知道答案。我們不可能知道答案。沒有實(shí)驗(yàn)可以找到這個(gè)問題的答案。我們所體驗(yàn)到的一切都是在大腦中發(fā)生的事件。當(dāng)我看一只貓時(shí)，我并不是，我也無法證明那里是一只貓。我所體驗(yàn)到的是我自己大腦中對(duì)貓的感知。我只是大腦的事件的見證者。我認(rèn)為推斷如果我在大腦中看到了一只貓，這非常有用。

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it's because I'm looking at a cat that is literally there and has its own feelings and motivations and should be pet and given food and water and love. I think that's the way you should live your life. But whether or not we live in a simulation, I'm a brain and a vat. I don't know. Do you care I don't really. Well, I care because it's a fascinating question and it's a fantastic way to get people excited about all kinds of topics, physics, psychology, consciousness, philosophy, but at the end of the day,

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這只是因?yàn)槲艺诳粗恢回垼鼘?shí)際上就在那，它有它自己的情感和動(dòng)機(jī)，應(yīng)該被寵愛、給食物和水以及愛。我認(rèn)為這就是你應(yīng)該生活的方式。但是，我們是否生活在一個(gè)模擬中，我是一臺(tái)電腦和一個(gè)培養(yǎng)皿，我不知道。你關(guān)心嗎？其實(shí)，我關(guān)心你因?yàn)檫@是一個(gè)令人著迷的問題，它是一個(gè)很好的方式來激發(fā)人們對(duì)各種主題的興趣，物理、心理學(xué)、意識(shí)、哲學(xué)，但是最終，我們都知道，這只是問題的一部分

?what would the difference be if you. The cat needs to be fed at the end of the day. Otherwise it'll be a dead cat. Right. But if it's not even a real cat, then it's just like a video game cat. And right. So what's the difference between killing a, a digital cat in a video game because of neglect versus a real cat. It seems very different to us psychologically. Like I don't really feel bad about, oh my gosh, I forgot to feed my Tamagotchi.

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如果貓需要在晚上喂食，否則它將死亡。是的。但如果這只貓甚至不是真正的貓，那么它就像游戲中的貓一樣。是的。所以，因?yàn)楹鲆暥谟螒蛑袣⑺酪恢粩?shù)字貓和殺死一只真正的貓有什么區(qū)別。在我們心理方面看起來 very different。就像我并不會(huì)感到內(nèi)疚，哦我的天，我忘記喂我的貓薄荷了。

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Right. But I would feel terrible if I forgot to feed my actual cats. So can you just touch on the topic of simulation Do you find this thought experiment that we're living in a simulation useful, inspiring or constructive in any kind of way Do you think it's ridiculous Do you think it could be true or is it just a useful thought experiment I think it is extremely useful as a thought experiment because it makes sense to everyone, especially as we see virtual reality and computer games getting more and more complex,

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好的。但我如果忘記喂我的真正的貓，我會(huì)感到非常不舒服。所以你能就模擬的話題談一下嗎？ 你認(rèn)為這個(gè)思想實(shí)驗(yàn)——我們生活在模擬中是否有任何用處、激勵(lì)或 constructive? 你認(rèn)為它是否有些荒謬？ 或者它是否可能是真的嗎？ 或者它只是有用的思想實(shí)驗(yàn)？ 我認(rèn)為這個(gè)思想實(shí)驗(yàn)非常有價(jià)值，因?yàn)樗鼘?duì)每個(gè)人都有益處，特別是在我們看到虛擬現(xiàn)實(shí)和電子游戲變得越來越復(fù)雜時(shí)。

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you're not talking to an audience in like Newton's time where you're like, imagine a clock that it has mechanics in it that are so complex that it can create love and everyone's like, no, but today you really start to feel, you know, man, at what point is this little robot friend of mine going to be like someone I don't want to cancel plans with, you know And so it's a great, the thought experiment of do we live in a simulation Am I a brain in a vat that has just been given electrical impulses from some nefarious other beings so that I believe that I live on earth and that I have a body and all of this.

你不是在像牛頓時(shí)代那樣面對(duì)一個(gè)觀眾，而是在講述一個(gè)假設(shè)，也就是有復(fù)雜的機(jī)械組成的時(shí)鐘，可以創(chuàng)造出愛情，每個(gè)人都會(huì)這樣，不對(duì)，但今天，你開始意識(shí)到，你比如說，我的這個(gè)小機(jī)器人朋友什么時(shí)候會(huì)變得像我不希望取消計(jì)劃的人那樣了，你明白嗎，這是一個(gè)偉大的思想實(shí)驗(yàn)，我們是否生活在一個(gè)模擬中，我是某個(gè)從邪惡的其他生物那里接受的電子脈沖的vat中的大腦的假人，這樣我就相信，我生活在地球上，我有身體，這一切。

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?And the fact that you can't prove it either way is a fantastic way to introduce people to some of the deepest questions. So you mentioned a little buddy that you would want to cancel an appointment with. So that's a lot of our conversations. That's what my research is. Artificial intelligence. And I apologize, but you're such a fun person to ask these big questions with. Well, I hope I can give some answers that are interesting. Well, because, because of you've sharpened your brain's ability to explore some of the most,

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而你無法證明這一點(diǎn)是讓人們了解一些深層次問題的一個(gè)神奇的方式。所以你說想要取消與一個(gè)小朋友的約會(huì)。這就是我們的對(duì)話內(nèi)容。這就是我的研究。人工智能。對(duì)不起，但你是一個(gè)非常有趣的人，與這些問題進(jìn)行對(duì)話。我希望我可以給出一些有趣的答案。因?yàn)槟阋呀?jīng)提高了你大腦探索某些最深刻問題的能力

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?some of the questions that many scientists actually afraid of even touching,which is fascinating. And I think you're in that sense, ultimately a great scientist through this process of sharpening your brain. Well, I don't know if I am a scientist. I think, you know, science is a way of knowing. And there are a lot of questions I investigate that are not scientific questions on, on like minefield. We have definitely done scientific experiments and studies that had hypotheses and all of that.

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許多科學(xué)家實(shí)際上都害怕甚至不愿意回答某些問題，這些問題令人著迷。你在這個(gè)問題上的表現(xiàn)在某種程度上可以說是一位偉大的科學(xué)家。不過，我不知道我是不是一位科學(xué)家。我認(rèn)為，科學(xué)是一種認(rèn)識(shí)的方式。我調(diào)查的問題有些并不是科學(xué)問題，就像一片地雷區(qū)。我們確實(shí)進(jìn)行了一些科學(xué)實(shí)驗(yàn)和研究，并提出了假設(shè)。

?But, you know, not to be too like precious about what does the word science mean. But I think I would just describe myself as curious and I hope that that curiosity is contagious. So to you, the scientific method is deeply connected to science because your curiosity took you to asking questions. To me, asking a good question, even if you feel society feels that it's not a question within the reach of science currently, to me, the asking the question is the biggest step of the scientific process.

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但我知道，不應(yīng)該過于珍惜“科學(xué)”這個(gè)詞的含義。我想我只能把自己描述為好奇的，并希望這種好奇心可以傳染。因此，對(duì)于你來說，科學(xué)方法與科學(xué)緊密相連，因?yàn)槟愕暮闷嫘氖鼓阕呦蛄颂釂?。?duì)于我而言，提問一個(gè)好問題，即使認(rèn)為當(dāng)前的問題并不是科學(xué)可以涉及的，提問仍然是科學(xué)過程的一個(gè)大步驟。

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The scientific method is the second part. And that may be what traditionally is called science, but to me, asking the questions, being brave enough to ask the questions, being curious and not constrained by what you're supposed to think is, is just true what it means to be a scientist to me. It's certainly a huge part of what it means to be a human.

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科學(xué)方法只是傳統(tǒng)上被稱為科學(xué)的第二部分。對(duì)于我而言，提問、勇敢地提問、好奇并不受你應(yīng)該認(rèn)為的那樣的約束，這就是作為科學(xué)家的真正含義。這對(duì)我來說無疑是人類的一部分，它顯然是人類生活的重要組成部分。

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If I were to say, you know what, I don't believe in forces. I think that when I push on a massive object, a ghost leaves my body and enters the object I'm pushing. And these ghosts happen to just get really lazy when they're around massive things. And that's why F equals MA. Oh, and by the way, the laziness of the ghost is in proportion to the mass of the object, so boom, proved me wrong. Every experiment, well, you can never find the ghost.

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如果我說，你知道嗎，我不相信力量。我認(rèn)為當(dāng)我推動(dòng)一個(gè)巨大的物體時(shí)，一個(gè)幽靈會(huì)從我的身體中離開并進(jìn)入推動(dòng)的物體中。而這些幽靈在接觸巨大的物體時(shí)會(huì)變得非常懶。這就是為什么F等于MA。哦，并且，幽靈的懶惰與物體的重量成比例，所以， Boom，證明我錯(cuò)了。每一次實(shí)驗(yàn)，嗯，你永遠(yuǎn)無法找到幽靈。

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?And so none of that theory is scientific. But once I start saying, can I see the ghost Why should there be a ghost And if there aren't ghosts, what might I expect And I start to do different tests to see, is this falsifiable Are there things that should happen if there are ghosts or are there things that shouldn't happen And do they, you know, what do I observe Now I'm thinking scientifically,

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所有這些理論都不科學(xué)。但是，一旦我開始說，我能看到鬼嗎？鬼的存在有什么必要性？如果沒有鬼，我會(huì)得到什么樣的期望？我開始做不同的測試來觀察，這是否可證明？如果存在鬼，會(huì)發(fā)生什么事情？是否發(fā)生了不應(yīng)該發(fā)生的事情？現(xiàn)在，我想科學(xué)地思考

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?I don't think of science as, wow, a picture of a black hole. That's just a photograph. That's an image. That's data. That's a sensory and perception experience. Science is how we got that and how we understand it and how we believe in it and how we reduce our uncertainty around what it means. But I would say I'm deeply within the scientific community and I'm sometimes disheartened by the elitism of the thinking, sort of not allowing yourself to think outside of the box. So allowing the possibility of going against the conventions of science,

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我不認(rèn)為科學(xué)像一幅黑洞的照片一樣，只是一張圖片。這只是一個(gè)照片。這只是一個(gè)圖像。這只是一個(gè)數(shù)據(jù)。這只是一個(gè)感官和感知經(jīng)驗(yàn)?？茖W(xué)是獲取它的方法，理解和相信它的方法，減少我們對(duì)它的不確定感。但我會(huì)說，我深深地屬于科學(xué)社區(qū)。有時(shí)，我因?yàn)樗枷氲?elitism而感到沮喪，似乎不愿意跳出思維的圈子。因此，允許存在可能去反對(duì)科學(xué)的習(xí)俗，

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I think is, is a beautiful part of some of the greatest scientists in history. I don't know. I, I'm impressed by scientists every day and, uh, revolutions in our knowledge of the world occur only under very special circumstances. It is very scary to challenge conventional thinking and, and, and risky because let's go back to elitism and ego, right If you just say, you know what, I believe in the spirits of my body and all forces are actually created by invisible creatures that, that, that transfer themselves between objects.

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我認(rèn)為，這是歷史上一些最偉大的科學(xué)家之一所美好的一部分。我不知道。我每天都會(huì)被科學(xué)家們所震撼，我們對(duì)世界的認(rèn)識(shí)在極端情況下發(fā)生了革命。挑戰(zhàn)傳統(tǒng)觀念非?？膳拢L(fēng)險(xiǎn)很高，讓我們回到精英主義和自我感覺，對(duì)吧？如果你說，你知道嗎，我相信我的身體的靈魂，所有的力量實(shí)際上是由看不見的生物體創(chuàng)造的，它們在物品之間轉(zhuǎn)移自己。

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?If you ridicule every other theory and say that you're what you're, you're correct. Then ego gets involved and you just don't go anywhere. But the fundamentally the question of, well, what is a force Um, is incredibly important. We need to have that conversation, but it needs to be done in this very political way of like, let's be respectful of everyone and let's realize that we're all learning together and not shutting out other people.

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如果你嘲笑所有其他理論并說這些都是胡言亂語，那么你是對(duì)的。然后自尊心介入，你就不會(huì)再有進(jìn)展。但從根本上來說，問題就是，什么是力場？這是非常重要的。我們需要進(jìn)行那樣的對(duì)話，但需要以這種政治方式來交談，尊重每個(gè)人，并意識(shí)到我們正在一起學(xué)習(xí)，而不是關(guān)閉其他人。

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And so when you look at a lot of revolutionary ideas, um, they were not accepted right away and you know, Galileo had a couple of problems with the authorities and later thinkers Descartes was like, all right, look, I kind of agree with Galileo, but I'm going to have to not say that I'll have to create and invent and write different things that keep me from being in trouble, but we still slowly made progress. Revolutions are difficult in all forms and certainly in science. Before we get to AI on topic of revolutionary ideas,

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因此，當(dāng)你看待許多革命性思想時(shí)，它們并不是立即被接受的。你知道，Galileo與當(dāng)局發(fā)生了一些問題，而后來的思想者笛卡爾就比如說，嗯，我可能有點(diǎn)像Galileo，但是我得承認(rèn)，我可能需要?jiǎng)?chuàng)造、發(fā)明和寫一些不同的東西來避免麻煩，但我們?nèi)匀痪徛厝〉昧诉M(jìn)展。革命在任何形式中都非常困難，當(dāng)然在科學(xué)中也是如此。在我們討論革命性思想之前，我們得先解決人工智能的問題。

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let me ask on a Reddit AMA, you said that is the earth flat is one of the favorite questions you've ever answered. Yeah. Speaking of revolutionary ideas. So your video on that people should definitely watch is really fascinating. Can you elaborate why you enjoyed answering this question so much Yeah, well, it's a long story. I remember a long time ago, uh, I was living in New York at the time. So it had to have been like 2009 or something. I visited the flat earth forums and this was before the flat earth theories became as sort of mainstream as they are. I'm sorry to ask the dumb question forums, online forums.

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在 Reddit 的AMA(用戶詢問會(huì))上，你表示地球是平的是你回答最喜歡的問題之一。是啊，談?wù)摳锩运枷?。所以你的視頻中關(guān)于人們必須觀看的內(nèi)容真的很有趣。你如何解釋你非常喜歡回答這個(gè)問題的原因呢？嗯，這是一個(gè)很長的故事。我記得很久以前，當(dāng)時(shí)，我生活在紐約。所以應(yīng)該是2009年或 something。我去了平地球論壇，這是在平地球理論變得就像它們一樣主流的之前。我很抱歉我問了一些愚蠢的問題論壇，在線論壇。

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?Yeah. Okay. The flat earth society. I don't know if it's.com or.org, but I went there and I was reading, you know, their ideas and how they responded to typical criticisms of, well, the earth isn't flat because what about this And I could not tell, and I mentioned this in my video, I couldn't tell how many of these, uh, community members actually believe the earth was flat or were just trolling. And I realized that the fascinating thing is how do we know anything and what makes for a good belief, uh, versus a maybe not so tenable or good belief.

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哦。好的。平地球社會(huì)。我不知道它是否是www.或www.org，但我去了那里，閱讀他們的想法，以及他們?nèi)绾螒?yīng)對(duì)典型的批評(píng)，比如說，“地球是平的，這不公平?！蔽覠o法確定這些社區(qū)成員是否真的相信地球是平的，或者只是 Troll。我意識(shí)到，令人著迷的是，我們?nèi)绾沃廊魏问虑椋约笆裁词呛玫男拍?，哪些是也許不夠可靠或好的信念。

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And so that's really what my video about earth being flat is about. It's about, look, there are a lot of reasons. Uh, the earth is probably not flat. Um, but a flat earth believer can respond to every single one of them, but it's all in an ad hoc way and all of these, all of their rebuttals aren't necessarily going to form a cohesive, non-contradictory hole. And I believe that's the episode where I talk about Occam's razor and Newton's flaming laser sword.

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所以這這就是我關(guān)于地球是平的視頻所討論的內(nèi)容。它討論的是關(guān)于地球是否平的很多問題，例如，地球可能不是平的。但是，一個(gè)平地球支持者只能以 ad-hoc 的方式回應(yīng)這些問題，并且，所有這些回應(yīng)都不會(huì)形成一個(gè)連貫、無矛盾的觀點(diǎn)。我相信，這就是那個(gè)我討論 Occam's razor 和牛頓的燃燒激光劍的劇集。

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And then I say, well, you know what Wait a second. We know that space contracts as you move. And so to a particle moving near the speed of light towards earth, earth would be flattened in the direction of that particles travel. So to them, earth is flat. Like we need to be, you know, really generous to even wild ideas because they're all thinking they're all the communication of ideas and what else can it mean to be a human

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然后我說，嗯，你知道什么，等待一下。我們知道，隨著你移動(dòng)，空間會(huì)收縮。因此，對(duì)于一個(gè)以接近光速向地球移動(dòng)的粒子，地球在它的運(yùn)動(dòng)方向上會(huì)被壓縮。所以對(duì)于那些粒子來說，地球是平的。就像我們需要，你知道的，對(duì)甚至狂野的想法都非?？犊?yàn)樗鼈兌颊J(rèn)為它們只是思想的傳播，而人類意味著什么。

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Yeah. And I think I'm a huge fan of the flat earth theory, quote unquote, in the sense that to me feels harmless to explore some of the questions of what it means to believe something, what it means to explore the edge of science and so on. It's cause it's a harm. It's a, to me, nobody gets hurt whether the earth is flat around, not literally, but I mean, intellectually, when we're just having a conversation that said, again, to elitism, I find that scientists roll their eyes way too fast on the flat earth, the kind of dismissal that I see to this even notion, they haven't like sat down and say, what are the arguments that are being proposed And this is why these arguments are incorrect.

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是的，我認(rèn)為我非常喜歡"平面地球"理論， quote unquote，因?yàn)樗屛腋械綗o害去探索一些問題，例如，它意味著什么相信某些東西，它意味著什么探索科學(xué)的邊緣等等。這造成了傷害。對(duì)我來說，不管地球是平的還是斜的，都不會(huì)有人受到傷害，這不是字面上的意思，而是從智力上考慮，當(dāng)我們只是在討論精英主義時(shí)，我發(fā)現(xiàn)科學(xué)家在看待平面地球時(shí)眼睛眨眼的速度非?？欤铱梢钥吹剿麄儗?duì)這個(gè)甚至 notion 的蔑視，他們并不想坐下來談?wù)劊岢鲞@些觀點(diǎn)的原因，這就是為什么這些觀點(diǎn)不正確。

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So this is, you know, that should be something that scientists should always do even to the most sort of ideas that seem ridiculous. So I like this as it's almost, it's almost my test when I ask people what they think about flat earth theory to see how quickly they roll their eyes. Well, yeah. I mean, let me go on record and say that the earth is not flat. It is a three-dimensional spheroid. However, I don't know that and it has not been proven. Science doesn't prove anything. It just reduces uncertainty. Could the earth actually be flat Extremely unlikely. Yes. Extremely unlikely

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所以這應(yīng)該一直是科學(xué)家所應(yīng)始終遵循的原則，即使這些想法看起來毫無意義。所以我喜歡這種方式，它幾乎就像是我的測試，當(dāng)我詢問人們對(duì)“地球是平的”理論的看法時(shí)，看看他們眨眼的速度。嗯，是啊。我要記錄下來說地球不是平的，它是一個(gè)三維的球體。但是，我不知道這一點(diǎn)，這一點(diǎn)也沒有被證明?？茖W(xué)并不能證明任何事情，它只是減少不確定性。地球是否真的是平的非常不太可能。是的。非常不太可能。

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And so it is a ridiculous notion if we care about how probable and certain our ideas might be, but I think it's incredibly important to talk about science in that way. And to not resort to, well, it's true. It's true in the same way that a mathematical theorem is true. And I think we're kind of like being pretty pedantic about defining this stuff, but like, sure, I could take a rocket ship out and I could orbit earth and look at it and it would look like a ball, right But I still can't prove that I'm not living in a simulation, that I'm not a brain in a vat, that this isn't all an elaborate ruse created by some technologically advanced extraterrestrial civilization.

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因此，我們在意我們的想法是否可能和確定是很滑稽的想法，但我認(rèn)為這樣談?wù)摽茖W(xué)非常重要。不要陷入，好吧，這是真的。它就像數(shù)學(xué)定理一樣是真的。我認(rèn)為我們有點(diǎn)像在定義這些事物的非常仔細(xì)，但就像，我可以一艘火箭飛出太陽系，繞地球飛行并觀察它，它看起來就像個(gè)球，對(duì)吧，但我仍然不能證明我不活在一個(gè)模擬中，我不成為一瓶大腦的模擬器，這并非由某些技術(shù)先進(jìn)的外星文明制造的復(fù)雜的騙局。

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So there's always some doubt and that's fine. That's exciting. And I think that kind of doubt, practically speaking, is useful when you start talking about quantum mechanics or string theory. It helps. To me, that kind of little adds a little spice into the thinking process of scientists. So, I mean, just as a thought experiment, your video kind of, okay, say the earth is flat, what would the forces when you walk about this flat earth feel like to the human That's a really nice thought experiment to think about.

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因此，總會(huì)有一些疑慮，這是很正常的。這讓人感到興奮。而且，我認(rèn)為，在實(shí)踐中，這種疑慮是很有用的，當(dāng)你開始談?wù)摿孔恿W(xué)或弦理論時(shí)。它可以幫助。對(duì)我來說，這種疑慮小小的增加了科學(xué)家們的思考過程的樂趣。所以，就像一種思辨實(shí)驗(yàn)一樣，你的視頻也許可以這樣設(shè)想，假設(shè)地球是一個(gè)平面，當(dāng)你走在這個(gè)平面上時(shí)，你會(huì)感受到什么力量？這是一個(gè)非常有趣的思辨實(shí)驗(yàn)，可以讓人深入思考人類和地球的關(guān)系。

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?Right. Because what's really nice about it is that it's a funny thought experiment, but you actually wind up accidentally learning a whole lot about gravity and about relativity and geometry. And I think that's really the goal of what I'm doing. I'm not trying to convince people that the earth is round. I feel like you either believe that it is or you don't. And that's, you know, how can I change that Yeah. What I can do is change how you think and how you are introduced to important concepts like, well, how does gravity operate Oh, it's all about the center of mass of an object.

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對(duì)。因?yàn)檫@其實(shí)是一個(gè)有趣的思考實(shí)驗(yàn)，但實(shí)際上你會(huì)意外地學(xué)習(xí)很多關(guān)于重力、相對(duì)論和幾何的知識(shí)。我認(rèn)為這這就是我的目標(biāo)。我并不試圖說服人們地球是圓形的。我感覺人們要么相信地球是圓形的，要么不相信。那換句話說，我可以改變?nèi)藗儗?duì)這些概念的看法，比如，我可以改變?nèi)藗儗?duì)重力如何運(yùn)作的看法，或者我可以讓人們更好地了解物體的質(zhì)量中心。

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?So, right, on a sphere, we're all pulled towards the middle, essentially the centroid geometrically, but on a disk, you're going to be pulled at a weird angle if you're out near the edge. And that stuff's fascinating. Yeah. And to me, that's that was that that particular video opened my eyes even more to what gravity is. It's just a really nice visualization tool of because you always imagine gravity with spheres with masses that are spheres. Yeah. And imagining gravity on masses that are not spherical, some some other shape. But here a plate, a flat object is really interesting. It makes you really kind of visualize in a three dimensional way the force.

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對(duì)球形而言，我們都被指向中間，實(shí)際上幾何學(xué)上的核心點(diǎn)，但對(duì)眾來說，如果你靠近邊緣，你會(huì)被縮成奇怪的角，這些事情非常令人著迷。是的。對(duì)我來說，那個(gè)視頻讓我更加了解了重力的本質(zhì)。它只是一個(gè)非常美好的可視化工具，因?yàn)槟憧偸窍胂笾亓κ且粋€(gè)球狀物，并且你常專注于想象重力對(duì)球狀物上的眾多樣子。是的。想象重力對(duì)非球形物體或不同形狀的樣子，但它們對(duì)平板或平穩(wěn)的樣子非常有趣。它讓你產(chǎn)生真實(shí)的3D可視化觀點(diǎn)力。

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Yeah. Even if a disk the size of Earth would be impossible, I think anything larger than like the moon basically needs to be a sphere because gravity will round it out. So you can't have a teacup the size of Jupiter, right There's a great book about a teacup in the universe that I highly recommend. I don't remember the author. I forget her name, but it's a wonderful book. So look it up. I think it's called Teacup in the Universe. Just to link on this point for briefly, your videos are generally super people love them.

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是的。即使地球大小的圓盤是不可能的，我認(rèn)為任何比月亮更大的物體都需要成為一個(gè)球體，因?yàn)橹亓?huì)把它壓實(shí)。所以不可能有木星大小的茶杯，對(duì)吧。

有一個(gè)非常好的關(guān)于茶杯在宇宙中的書，我強(qiáng)烈推薦。我不記得作者的名字。我不記得她的名字，但它是一本非常好的書。所以去查一下。我認(rèn)為它被稱為宇宙中的茶杯。

為了簡要提及這一點(diǎn)，你的視頻通常都非常受歡迎，

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Right. If you look at the sort of number of likes versus dislikes, this measure of YouTube, right, is incredible. And as do I. But this particular flat Earth video has more dislikes than usual. What do you on that topic in general What's your sense How big is the community Not just who believes in flat Earth, but sort of the anti scientific community that naturally distrust scientists in a way that's not an open minded way. Like really just distrust scientists like they're bought by some kind of mechanism of the some kind of bigger system that's trying to manipulate human beings.

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對(duì)。如果你查看 YouTube 上喜歡和不喜歡的數(shù)量，這個(gè)指標(biāo)在 YouTube 上非常驚人，我也是。但是，這個(gè)特定的平球地球視頻卻比通常更多的反對(duì)者，也就是不信任科學(xué)家的社群。你對(duì)此有什么看法？這個(gè)社群的規(guī)模有多大？不僅僅在于相信平球地球的人，而是類似于反科學(xué)社群，它們天然地不信任科學(xué)家，以一種開放不了的思維方式。就像真的不信任科學(xué)家，就像他們被某種機(jī)制或某種更大的系統(tǒng)購買或操縱了。

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What's your sense of the size of that community You're one of the sort of great educators in the world that educates people on the exciting power of science. So you're kind of up against this community. What's your sense of it I really have no idea. I haven't looked at the likes and dislikes on the flat Earth video. And so I would wonder if it has a greater percentage of dislikes than usual. Is that because of people disliking it Because they think that it's a video about Earth being flat and they find that ridiculous and they dislike it without even really watching much.

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你對(duì)那個(gè)社區(qū)的規(guī)模有何感覺？你是全球那些偉大的科學(xué)家之一，教導(dǎo)人們科學(xué)令人興奮的力量。所以你在某種程度上與這個(gè)社區(qū)對(duì)抗。你對(duì)這個(gè)社區(qū)的感覺是什么？我真的不知道。我沒有看平球視頻的喜歡和反對(duì)數(shù)量。所以我可能會(huì)想知道，它比通常的反對(duì)率更高。這是因?yàn)槿藗儾幌矚g它嗎？因?yàn)樗麄冋J(rèn)為它是一個(gè)關(guān)于地球是平的視頻，并且他們發(fā)現(xiàn)這非常滑稽，并且他們甚至沒有真正看過很多。

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Do they wish that I was more like dismissive of flat Earth theories Yeah, that's possible. I know there are a lot of response videos that kind of go through the episode and are pro flat Earth. But I don't know if there's a larger community of unorthodox thinkers today than there have been in the past. OK, and I just want to not lose them. I want them to keep listening and thinking. And by calling them all idiots or something like that is no good because. How idiotic are they really I mean, the Earth isn't a sphere at all. Like we know that it's an oblate spheroid and that in and of itself is really interesting.

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他們會(huì)希望我能更加蔑視平地球理論嗎？是的，這可能可以實(shí)現(xiàn)。我知道有很多回應(yīng)視頻，它們處理了這一事件并支持平地球理論。但我不知道現(xiàn)在相比過去，是否存在更大的非傳統(tǒng)思考群體。好的，我只是想不要失去他們。我想讓他們繼續(xù)聽并思考。 calling them all idiots或類似的東西并不好，因?yàn)椤Ｋ麄兪欠裾娴氖怯薮赖?I mean，地球并不是一個(gè)球。就像我們知道它是一個(gè)扁球，這本身非常有趣。

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And I investigated that in which way is down where I'm like, really down does not point towards the center of the Earth. It points in different direction depending on what's underneath you and what's above you and what's around you. The whole universe is tugging on me. And then you also show that gravity is non uniform across the globe. Like if you just get thought experiment, if you build a bridge all the way in and all the way across the Earth and then just knock out its pillars, what would happen

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我研究了哪種方向是向下的，但我認(rèn)為向下并不是指向地球中心的方向。方向取決于下面是地核、上面是天還是周圍是山。整個(gè)宇宙都在吸引著我。此外，你也證明了引力在全球范圍內(nèi)并不均勻。就像如果你想做一個(gè)思想實(shí)驗(yàn)，建造一條從地球一端到另一端的橋，然后破壞橋的支柱，會(huì)發(fā)生什么？

?

Yeah. And you describe how it would be like a very chaotic, unstable thing that's happening because gravity is non uniform throughout the Earth. Yeah. Yeah. In small spaces like the ones we work in, we can essentially assume that gravity is uniform, but it's not. It is weaker the further you are from the Earth and it also is going to be, it's radially pointed towards the middle of the Earth. So a really large object will feel tidal forces because of that non uniformness. And we can take advantage of that with satellites, right So it's a great way to align your satellite without having to use fuel or any kind of engine.

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是的，你描述了這種情況會(huì)像是一個(gè)非?；靵y、不穩(wěn)定的東西，因?yàn)樗l(fā)生在因?yàn)橹亓υ谡麄€(gè)地球均勻分布的情況下。是的，在我們工作的小空間中，我們可以幾乎可以說是假設(shè)重力是均勻的，但它并不是。它隨著你離地球的距離變?nèi)酰矔?huì)變?nèi)?，它向地球中心放射指向。所以一個(gè)非常大的物體會(huì)因?yàn)檫@種不均勻性感受到潮汐力。我們可以通過衛(wèi)星利用這一點(diǎn)，所以這是一種很好的方式來對(duì)齊衛(wèi)星，而不需要使用燃料或任何引擎。

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So let's jump back to it. Artificial intelligence. What's your thought of the state of where we are at currently with artificial intelligence and what do you think it takes to build human level or superhuman level intelligence I don't know what intelligence means. That's my biggest question at the moment. And it's, I think it's because my instinct is always to go, well, what are the foundations here of our discussion What does it mean to be intelligent How do we measure the intelligence of an artificial machine or a program or something Can we say that humans are intelligent Because there's also a fascinating field of how do you measure human intelligence Of course.

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所以讓我們回到人工智能這個(gè)話題。你對(duì)于目前人工智能所處的狀態(tài)有何想法？你認(rèn)為構(gòu)建人類水平或超人類水平智能需要什么？我不知道智慧是什么意思。目前是我的最大問題。我認(rèn)為這是因?yàn)槲业闹庇X總是傾向于問，那么我們的討論的基礎(chǔ)是什么？智慧意味著什么？如何測量機(jī)器或程序的智力？我們可以說人類是聰明的，因?yàn)檫€有一個(gè)令人著迷的問題，如何測量人類的智力。

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But if we just take that for granted, saying that whatever this fuzzy intelligence thing we're talking about, humans kind of have it. What would be a good test for you So during develop a test, that's natural language conversation. Would that impress you A chat bot that you'd want to hang out and have a beer with for a bunch of hours or have dinner plans with Is that a good test Natural language conversation. Is there something else that would impress you or is that also too difficult to think about Oh yeah.

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但是，如果我們只是假設(shè)這一點(diǎn)，說："無論我們討論的這是什么模糊的智慧，人類kind of有它。你會(huì)喜歡怎樣的測試？"所以，在開發(fā)測試時(shí)，這是自然語言對(duì)話。這是否會(huì)讓你感到震驚？一個(gè)聊天機(jī)器人，你希望和他們一起度過幾個(gè)小時(shí)，喝一杯啤酒，或者與他們共進(jìn)晚餐。這是否是一個(gè)好的測試？自然語言對(duì)話。還有其它東西會(huì)讓你感到震驚嗎？還是這也太難以思考了？是的。

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I'm pretty much impressed by everything. I think that if- Roomba If there was a chat bot that was like incredibly, I don't know, really had a personality and if I didn't be the turning test, right If I'm unable to tell that it's not another person, but then I was shown a bunch of wires and mechanical components and it was like, that's actually what you're talking to. I don't know if I would feel that guilty destroying it. I would feel guilty because clearly it's well-made and it's a really cool thing.

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我?guī)缀醣凰惺挛锼?impressed。我認(rèn)為如果有一個(gè)非常神奇的聊天機(jī)器人，它真的具有個(gè)性，如果我不是一個(gè)測試者，它如果無法分辨它是否是一個(gè)人，但它展示了一堆電線和機(jī)械組件，它就像，這就是你正在與之交流的人。我不知道我會(huì)感覺多么愧疚去摧毀它。我會(huì)感覺愧疚，因?yàn)樗@然非常制造良好，這是一個(gè)非?？岬臇|西。

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It's like destroying a really cool car or something, but I would not feel like I was a murderer. So yeah, at what point would I start to feel that way And this is such a subjective psychological question. If you give it movement or if you have it act as though, or perhaps really feel pain as I destroy it and scream and resist, then I'd feel bad. Yeah, it's beautifully put. And let's just say act like it's a pain.

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類似于摧毀一輛非?？岬能嚮蛘咂茐哪承〇|西，但是我不會(huì)感到我像是在謀殺。所以，我什么時(shí)候開始會(huì)這樣感覺呢？這是一個(gè)非常主觀的心理問題。如果你給它運(yùn)動(dòng)或者讓它看起來好像，或者當(dāng)我摧毀它、尖叫和抵抗時(shí)，它真正感到痛苦，那么我會(huì)感覺不好。是啊，這說得非常漂亮。讓我們可以說，就像它感覺痛苦一樣。

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?So if you just have a robot that not screams, just like moans in pain if you kick it, that immediately just puts it in a class that we humans, it becomes, we anthropomorphize it, it almost immediately becomes human. But that's a psychology question as opposed to sort of a physics question. Right. I think that's a really good instinct to have. If the robot screams and moans, even if you don't believe that it has the mental experience, the qualia of pain and suffering, I think it's still a good instinct to say, you know what, I'd rather not hurt it.

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因此，如果有一臺(tái)機(jī)器人，它不會(huì)尖叫，就像如果你踢它，它會(huì)呻吟一樣，這立刻會(huì)將它歸類為人類的一部分，我們?nèi)祟悤?huì)賦予它，我們將其擬人化，它幾乎立即就會(huì)被視為人類。但是這是一個(gè)心理學(xué)問題，而不是物理學(xué)問題。對(duì)。我認(rèn)為這是一個(gè)非常好的本能。即使機(jī)器人尖叫和呻吟，即使你不認(rèn)為它擁有心理體驗(yàn)和痛苦體驗(yàn)的感知，我仍然認(rèn)為這是一個(gè)好的本能，說，你知道吧，我更愿意不要傷害它。

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?The problem is that instinct can get us in trouble because then robots can manipulate that. And there's different kinds of robots. There's robots like the Facebook and the YouTube algorithm that recommends the video and they can manipulate in the same kind of way. Well, let me ask you just to stick on artificial intelligence for a second. Do you have worries about existential threats from AI or existential threats from other technologies like nuclear weapons that could potentially destroy life on earth or damage it to a very significant degree

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問題就在于本能會(huì)讓我們陷入麻煩，因?yàn)?then 機(jī)器人可以操縱。機(jī)器人有很多種，就像 Facebook 和 YouTube 推薦視頻的機(jī)器人，它們也可以操縱以同樣的方式。讓我再問你一個(gè)問題，只是人工智能。你有對(duì)人工智能的生死威脅擔(dān)憂嗎，或者對(duì)其他技術(shù)，如核武器，可能毀滅地球或造成極其嚴(yán)重傷害的生死威脅擔(dān)憂嗎？

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?Yeah, of course I do. Especially the weapons that we create. There's all kinds of famous ways to think about this. And one is that, wow, what if we don't see advanced alien civilizations because of the danger of technology What if we reach a point, and I think there's a channel, Thotty2, geez, I wish I remembered the name of the channel, but he delves into this kind of limit of maybe once you discover radioactivity and its power, you've reached this important hurdle. And the reason that the skies are so empty is that no one's ever managed to survive as a civilization once they have that destructive power. And when it comes to AI, I'm not really very worried because I think that there are plenty of other people that are already worried enough. And oftentimes these worries are just, they just get in the way of progress. And they're questions that we should address later.

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是的，我當(dāng)然有。特別是我們創(chuàng)造的武器。有無數(shù)種方式思考這個(gè)問題。一種方式是，哇，如果我們看不到高級(jí)外星文明因?yàn)榭萍嫉奈ｋU(xiǎn)，如果我們到達(dá)了一個(gè)點(diǎn)，比如 Thotty2，啊，我希望能記得這個(gè)頻道的名字，但他總是深入這種極限，可能一旦你發(fā)現(xiàn)放射性并它的能力，你就到達(dá)了這個(gè)重要的障礙。天空如此空曠的原因是因?yàn)橐坏碛羞@種毀滅性力量，一個(gè)文明就無法生存作為一個(gè)文明。當(dāng)涉及到人工智能時(shí)，我并不非常擔(dān)心，因?yàn)槲艺J(rèn)為還有很多其他人已經(jīng)擔(dān)心得足夠了。而且很多情況下，這些擔(dān)憂只是，它們阻礙進(jìn)展。它們是我們應(yīng)該解決 later 的問題。

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?And I think I talk about this in my interview with the self-driving autonomous vehicle guy, as I think it was a bonus scene from the Trolley Problem episode. And I'm like, wow, what should a car do if this really weird contrived scenario happens where it has to swerve and save the driver but kill a kid And he's like, well, what would a human do And if we resist technological progress because we're worried about all of these little issues, then it gets in the way. And we shouldn't avoid those problems, but we shouldn't allow them to be stumbling blocks to advancement.

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我認(rèn)為我在與自動(dòng)駕駛車輛那個(gè)人的面試中談到了這個(gè)問題，因?yàn)槲艺J(rèn)為這段情節(jié)是《購物車問題》劇集的額外場景。我要說的是，如果這種情況發(fā)生，一輛汽車應(yīng)該盡力避免造成傷亡，但它可能會(huì)挽救司機(jī)，但卻殺害一名孩子。他問我，人類會(huì)怎么做？我說，如果因?yàn)閾?dān)心這些問題而抵制技術(shù)進(jìn)步，那么這些問題就會(huì)妨礙我們前進(jìn)。我們不應(yīng)該避免這些問題，但我們也不能讓它們成為推動(dòng)技術(shù)進(jìn)步的障礙。

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So the folks like Sam Harris or Elon Musk are saying that we're not worried enough. So worry should not paralyze technological progress, but we're sort of marching, technology is marching forward without the key scientists, the developing of technology, worrying about the overnight having some effects that would be very detrimental to society. So to push back on your thought of the idea that there's enough people worrying about it, Elon Musk says there's not enough people worrying about it.

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所以像Sam Harris 或Elon Musk 這樣的人們說，我們還不用足夠擔(dān)心。擔(dān)心不應(yīng)該阻礙技術(shù)進(jìn)步，但我們似乎只是在前進(jìn)，科技在沒有關(guān)鍵科學(xué)家、技術(shù)開發(fā)和擔(dān)心一夜之間可能帶來非常不利社會(huì)后果的情況下前進(jìn)。所以你想反對(duì)人們對(duì)擔(dān)心技術(shù)發(fā)展足夠的人數(shù)量的看法嗎？Elon Musk 表示沒有足夠的人擔(dān)心這個(gè)問題。

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So that's the kind of balance is, you know, it's like folks who are really focused on nuclear deterrence are saying there's not enough people worried about nuclear deterrence, right So it's an interesting question of what is a good threshold of people to worry about these And if it's too many people that are worried, you're right, it'll be like the press would overreport on it and there'll be technological, halt technology progress. If not enough, then we can march straight ahead into that abyss that human beings might be destined for with the progress of technology.

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所以這種平衡就是，你知道的，那些真正關(guān)注核威懾的人說的是，沒有足夠的人擔(dān)心核威懾，這是有趣的問題，人們應(yīng)該有多少擔(dān)心這些才好呢？如果擔(dān)心的人太多，你是正確的，這將像媒體會(huì)過度報(bào)道一樣，導(dǎo)致技術(shù)停滯，阻礙技術(shù)的進(jìn)步。如果還不夠，那么我們可以繼續(xù)前進(jìn)，邁向人類與技術(shù)進(jìn)步不可避免的深淵。

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?Yeah, I don't know what the right balance is of how many people should be worried and how worried should they be. But we're always worried about new technology. We know that Plato was worried about the written word. He's like, we shouldn't teach people to write because then they won't use their minds to remember things. There have been concerns over technology and its advancement since the beginning of recorded history.

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是的，我不知道應(yīng)該讓多少人感到擔(dān)憂，以及應(yīng)該讓他們多么擔(dān)憂。但我們總是對(duì)新科技感到擔(dān)憂。我們知道柏拉圖會(huì)對(duì)書寫感到擔(dān)憂。他好像是說，不應(yīng)該教授人們書寫，因?yàn)檫@樣他們就會(huì)不使用他們的大腦來記住事情。自記錄歷史的開始以來，我們就對(duì)科技的發(fā)展和進(jìn)步產(chǎn)生了擔(dān)憂。

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?And so, you know, I think, however, these conversations are really important to have because, again, we learn a lot about ourselves. If we're really scared of some kind of AI, like coming into being that is conscious or whatever and can self replicate. We already do that every day. It's called humans being born. They're not artificial. They're humans, but they're intelligent. And I don't want to live in a world where we're worried about babies being born because what if they become evil Right. What if they become mean people What if they what if they're thieves Maybe we should just like what not have babies born Maybe we shouldn't create AI. It's like,

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因此，你知道，這些對(duì)話真的非常重要，因?yàn)?，再次來說，我們學(xué)到了很多東西。如果我們真的害怕某種類型的人工智能，比如誕生出具有自我意識(shí)或某種能力的自我復(fù)制體。我們每天都這樣做。這被稱為人類的出生。他們不是機(jī)器。他們是人類，但他們是聰明的。我不想生活在一個(gè)我們擔(dān)心嬰兒誕生的世界里。如果它們變得邪惡。如果它們成為壞人。如果它們成為小偷?；蛟S我們最好只是不要出生嬰兒?；蛟S我們不應(yīng)該創(chuàng)建人工智能。它就像，

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you know, we will want to have safeguards in place in the same way that we know. Look, a kid could be born that becomes some kind of evil person, but we have laws. Right. And it's possible that with advanced genetics in general, be able to, you know, it's a scary thought to say that, you know, this my child. If born would be would have an 83 percent chance of being a psychopath. Right. Like being able to if it's something genetic, if there's some sort of and what to use that information, what to do with that information is a difficult ethical.

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你知道的，我們需要采取與我們知道的方式相同的 safeguard。畢竟，一個(gè)小孩可能會(huì)出生成為一個(gè)邪惡的人，但我們有法律。是的。此外，在一般遺傳的情況下，可能有能力，你知道，這是一個(gè)可怕的想法，說，嘿，這是我的孩子。如果出生的話，它可能會(huì)有83%的機(jī)會(huì)成為一個(gè)Psychopath。是的。就像能力，如果這是遺傳的，如果有一些信息，以及如何處理這些信息，如何處理這些信息是困難的倫理。

?

Yeah, I'd like to find an answer that isn't well, let's not have them live. You know, I'd like to find an answer that is, well, all human life is worthy. And if you have an 83 percent chance of becoming a psychopath, well. You still deserve dignity. Yeah, and you still deserve to be treated. Well, and you still have rights, at least at this part of the world, at least in America, there's a respect for individual life in that way. That's well to me. But again, I'm in this bubble is a beautiful thing.

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是的，我想要找到一條不可行的答案，讓這些人不再活著。你知道，我想要找到一條答案，那就是，所有人類生命都值得珍視。如果你只有83%的機(jī)會(huì)成為神經(jīng)癥患者， still，你仍然值得擁有尊嚴(yán)。是的，你仍然值得擁有待遇。至少在這個(gè)世界上的這一部分，至少在美國，珍視個(gè)人生命的方式就是這樣。對(duì)我來說，這是美好的。但是 again，我在這個(gè)泡沫中感到的幸福是不同的。

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?But there's other cultures where individual human life is not that important, where a society. So I was born in Soviet Union, where the strength of nation and society together is more important than the one particular individual. So it's an interesting also notion. The stories we tell ourselves. I like the one where individuals matter, but it's unclear that that was what the future holds. Well, yeah. And I mean, let me even throw this out. Like, what is artificial intelligence How can it be artificial I really think that we get pretty obsessed and stuck on the idea that there is some thing that is a wild human, a pure human organism without technology.

但也有其他文化，那里的個(gè)人生命并不是那么的重要，而是社會(huì)的一部分。所以我出生于蘇聯(lián)，在那里，國家和整個(gè)社會(huì)的力量比單個(gè)個(gè)人更為重要。這是一個(gè)有趣的概念。也是我們給自己講述的故事。我喜歡那個(gè)故事，講述個(gè)人的重要性，但未來是否就是這樣，還是未知數(shù)。嗯，是的。我甚至想，談?wù)勅斯ぶ悄?，它如何可以被視為人工的。我真正認(rèn)為，我們變得非常沉迷于和固執(zhí)于某些想法，比如是否存在一個(gè)Wild human，一個(gè)純粹的人類生命體，沒有科技的幫助。

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But I don't think that's a real thing. I think that humans and human technology are one organism. Look at my glasses. OK, if an alien came down and saw me, would they necessarily know that this is an invention, that I don't grow these organically from my body They wouldn't know that right away. And the written word and spoons and cups, these are all pieces of technology. We are not alone as an organism.

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但我不認(rèn)為那是真實(shí)的。我認(rèn)為人類和人類技術(shù)是一體的。看看我的眼鏡。當(dāng)然，如果外星人來到地球并看到我，他們是否一定知道這是一項(xiàng)發(fā)明，我不認(rèn)為他們馬上會(huì)知道。文字、勺子和杯子都是技術(shù)的一部分。作為一個(gè)整體，我們不是孤獨(dú)的。

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And so the technology we create, whether it be video games or artificial intelligence that can self replicate and hate us, it's actually all the same organism. When you're in a car, where do you end in the car Again, it seems like a really easy question to answer. But the more you think about it, the more you realize, wow, we are in this symbiotic relationship with our inventions.

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因此我們創(chuàng)造的技術(shù)，無論是游戲還是能夠自我復(fù)制并恨我們的人工智能，其實(shí)都屬于同一個(gè)生命體。當(dāng)你駕車時(shí)，你會(huì)去哪里？這看起來好像是一個(gè)非常簡單的問題，但一旦你思考這個(gè)問題，你就會(huì)意識(shí)到，哇，我們和我們的創(chuàng)造力之間存在著一種共生關(guān)系。

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And there are plenty of people who are worried about it and there should be. But it's it's inevitable. And I think that even just us think of ourselves as individual individual intelligences may be silly notion because it's much better to think of the entirety of human civilization, living, all living organs on earth is a single living organism. Right. As a single intelligent creature, because you're right. Everything's intertwined. Everything is deeply connected.

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許多人擔(dān)心這個(gè)問題，這是必然的。但我認(rèn)為，甚至只是我們認(rèn)為自己是個(gè)人獨(dú)立的智能可能都是一種愚蠢的觀念，因?yàn)楦鼞?yīng)該把人類文明、地球上所有生命器官看作一個(gè)整體，就像是一個(gè)單一的生命體一樣。對(duì)，就像一個(gè)人。因?yàn)閷?duì)。一切都被交織在一起。一切都緊密相連。

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So we mentioned Elon Musk. So you're a curious lover of science. What do you think of the efforts that Elon Musk is doing with space exploration, with electric vehicles, with autopilot, sort of getting into the space of autonomous vehicles, with boring under L.A. and Neuralink trying to communicate brain machine interfaces, communicate between machines and human brains. Well, it's really inspiring. I mean, look at the the fandom that he's amassed. It's it's not common for someone like that to have such a following. And so engineering nerd.

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所以我們提到了馬斯克。你是一位對(duì)科學(xué)充滿好奇的愛好者。你如何看待馬斯克在太空探索、電動(dòng)汽車、自動(dòng)駕駛、甚至有點(diǎn)像進(jìn)入自主車輛領(lǐng)域的努力？他在LA的實(shí)驗(yàn)室以及神經(jīng)ink試圖建立腦機(jī)接口以及機(jī)器和人類大腦之間的溝通，都讓人們感到振奮。這種激勵(lì)不僅來自他的粉絲數(shù)量，而是來自他的工作讓人們意識(shí)到科學(xué)可以如此令人興奮和令人敬畏。

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Yeah. So it's really it's really exciting. But I also think that a lot of responsibility comes with that kind of power. So if I met him, I would love to hear how he feels about the responsibility he has. When when there are people who are such a fan of your ideas and your dreams and share them so closely with you, you have a lot of power and he didn't always have that. You know, he wasn't born as Elon Musk. Well, he was. But well, he was named that later. But the point is that that that I want to know the psychology of becoming a figure like him.

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是的，這非常令人興奮。但我也認(rèn)為擁有這種權(quán)力的同時(shí)也意味著很多責(zé)任。所以如果我能遇見他，我很期待聽到他對(duì)承擔(dān)責(zé)任的看法。當(dāng)你有一群支持者，他們非常喜歡你的思想和夢想，并與你分享這些想法時(shí)，你擁有很多權(quán)力，但他并不是一直都擁有這樣的權(quán)力。你知道，他并不是像馬斯克這樣的名字，他是真正的名字。但我想說的是，我想了解成為像他這樣的人物的心理。

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Well, I don't even know how to phrase the question right. But it's a question about what do you do when you're you're following your fans become so, you know, large that it's almost bigger than you. And how do you how do you responsibly manage that And maybe it doesn't worry him at all. And that's fine, too. But I'd be really curious. And I think there are a lot of people that go through this when they realize, whoa, there are a lot of eyes on me. There are a lot of people who really take what I say very earnestly and and take it to heart and will defend me.

Well，我甚至不知道該如何表述問題。但這是關(guān)于你如何應(yīng)對(duì)你的粉絲變得如此巨大，幾乎比你自己還要大的情況。你如何管理和應(yīng)對(duì)這種情況，也許他并沒有任何擔(dān)心。這也沒問題。但我會(huì)非常好奇。我認(rèn)為有很多的人都經(jīng)歷過這種情況，當(dāng)他們意識(shí)到有很多眼睛盯著他們。有很多的人都認(rèn)真地聽取我說的話，并會(huì)支持我。

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?And who that's that's. That that can be dangerous. And and you have to be responsible with it, both in terms of impact on society and psychologically for the individual, just just the the burden psychologically on on the on. Yeah. Yeah. How does he how does he think about that part of his his persona Well, let me throw that right back at you, because in some ways you're just a funny guy. That got in a humongous following, a funny guy with a curiosity. You got a huge following.

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那個(gè)人是誰？那可能危險(xiǎn)。你有責(zé)任對(duì)社會(huì)和對(duì)個(gè)人負(fù)責(zé)，既要影響社會(huì)，也要對(duì)個(gè)體的心理造成傷害，只是這種負(fù)擔(dān)對(duì)個(gè)體來說可能非常沉重。是的。他如何看待他的角色這一部分？嗯，讓我再次向你展示一遍，因?yàn)樵谀撤N程度上，你只是一個(gè)有趣的人物。你贏得了大量的粉絲，一個(gè)有趣的人物，一個(gè)充滿好奇心的人物。你贏得了大量的粉絲。

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How do you psychologically deal with the responsibility In many ways, you have a reach in many ways bigger than Elon Musk. What is your. What is the burden that you feel in educating being one of the biggest educators in the world where everybody is listening to you and actually everybody like most of the world that uses YouTube for education material, trust you as a source of good, strong scientific thinking. It's a burden and I try to approach it with a lot of. Humility and sharing like I'm not out there doing a lot of scientific experiments. I am sharing the work of real scientists and I'm celebrating their work and the way that they think and the power of curiosity.

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如何心理面對(duì)責(zé)任？在許多方面，你的影響力比Elon Musk更大。你有什么負(fù)擔(dān)？你在教育世界最偉大的教育家之一時(shí)感到的壓力是什么？就像大多數(shù)人使用YouTube作為教育材料一樣，信任你作為一個(gè)良好的來源，并欣賞你的科學(xué)思維。這是一個(gè)負(fù)擔(dān)，我嘗試以許多方式對(duì)待它。表現(xiàn)出謙虛和分享，就像我并不要進(jìn)行大量的科學(xué)實(shí)驗(yàn)一樣，我分享真正的科學(xué)家的工作，并慶祝他們的思想和他們的好奇心的力量。

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