MARIELLE SEGARRA, HOST:

This is NPR's LIFE KIT with tools to help you get it together.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

SEGARRA: Hey, everybody. Marielle Segarra here. There's this thing that happens in life. Once you get some experience at work or with a hobby or with parenting, whatever, you may want to share it, to pass along what you're learning, to make things a little easier for the next person who's climbing the mountain behind you. You want to be a mentor. On LIFE KIT today, we have a special episode about mentorship. It's a conversation between me and Massella Dukuly, the head of workplace strategy and innovation at the media and advisory firm Charter. And we did it live in front of an audience at On Air Fest in Brooklyn, an event for audio makers. We talk about who can be a mentor, share tips on how to structure these relationships. And we even do a little role-play where she's the mentor and I'm her wide-eyed mentee.

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SEGARRA: So I want to talk early on about what a college professor of mine would have called the WIIFM.

MASSELLA DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: She - I took this speech class in college. And she would write up on the board WIIFM, which meant, what's in it for me? And I try to remember that in any speech. But just in general, if you're talking about something, it's like, I'm sure we're all interested in being mentors out of the goodness of our hearts. But also, it's not a one-sided relationship, right? Like, there are other reasons to be a mentor.

DUKULY: One thousand percent. So my organization, Charter, we recently, actually, partnered with Qualtrics to do some research on mentor-mentee relationships. And specifically, like, we were trying to kind of figure out, can you have a solid mentor-mentee relationship virtually? And the fact is that you absolutely can. But one of the other findings that we realized was that, like, successful mentor-mentee relationships, the mentor often feels like they've gained something. And so, I think what's really unfortunate is that we have a tendency to assume that, you know, if you're a mentor, you're just, like, kindly giving out of your heart and so lovely and really nice. But it really shouldn't be that way.

When you think about, you know - what can a mentor get? - I'd say, first and foremost, this is an opportunity for them to develop a skill. Being good at a thing doesn't mean that you're good at helping somebody else be good at that thing. So learning to be able to teach, communicate in a way that's actually fruitful, is one of the other gains. And I think, inherently, it generally makes people better at the thing that they're doing.

Secondarily, I would also say, new perspective. An example of this - I had a friend who has a mentee. And she would say to me, one of the wildest things that she didn't expect from the relationship was how much she appreciated the fact that this person took risks, like, would say yes to everything because the mentee saw it as, like, just a growth opportunity. And it really put her in a position to kind of think about how to be a little bit more intentional with risk-taking in her life. And, you know, as the relationship sort of progressed, she realized that she was taking on more risks. And that felt very worthwhile.

SEGARRA: OK. So who can be a mentor?

DUKULY: I mean, anyone can. But it really requires diligence and understanding of how to set in place structure that's going to be meaningful for both you and the mentee. So just to kind of break that down really easily, I'd say, who can be a mentor? Somebody who, first of all, has the desire to be a mentor, somebody who's open to structure in their relationship with the person. This could be setting up cadence, setting up, like, clarity around responsibilities in the relationship. And, like, for what it's worth, that can be hard sometimes. Like, we're, as humans, like, not always that good at saying, here's what I need from you. And so if you want your mentor-mentee relationship to work well, you want to be thinking about those things.

SEGARRA: Another thing that you could get, another value that you could get out of being a mentor, probably, is learning how to have those conversations and how to communicate.

DUKULY: Absolutely. Absolutely...

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: ...Because if those things aren't happening or aren't working well, you're going to need to talk about them.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: And, you know, sometimes conflict can feel uncomfortable. Or sometimes feedback can be scary. But it's really fundamental in ensuring that you don't, like, prolong a relationship. And think about the damage that you end up creating if you're not forthright about the fact that this doesn't feel right or this isn't working or here's what I need.

SEGARRA: Right. So if you don't have time, maybe, let's say, to mentor somebody...

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: ...But you want to help them in some way, you think they're talented, maybe you offer to make an introduction...

DUKULY: Correct.

SEGARRA: ...To someone for them. Or - yeah, or help them meet someone else who has that time and can be a mentor for them.

DUKULY: Absolutely. Absolutely.

SEGARRA: Yeah. OK. So if you do want to be a mentor, if you're excited about this, where do you find mentees?

DUKULY: It's tricky because there's a space where, like, you don't want to be condescending to someone and be like, look at you. I can help you. Like, that doesn't...

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: That doesn't sound very good. I think, like - here's the thing, at the core of this, especially with a mentee, it's about relationship-building. You really want somebody who feels like they can be open and vulnerable with you. And so I think one of the core things to do is also being very active about - actively explicit about what it is that you want, so being able to say something like, hey, like, I feel like I have X, Y, and Z skills. I wouldn't, you know, lay it out as saying, like, I'm so great at everything. And I want to help everybody. It's saying, I - you know, I really enjoy communication. I think it's something that I'm, you know, feeling masterful in or feeling like I do a really great job. And I'd love to support somebody who isn't feeling that confident about it yet, and making it so that people can decipher for themselves what their needs are.

Maybe you do that at your workplace. Maybe you do that at school. The other thing - way that I've seen it actually be very helpful is, like, sharing it with friends, saying to friends, hey, I'm really interested in sharing this particular skill with somebody. If you know anybody that might be interested, let me know. I find especially that way when there's, like, a point of contact - and when I say point of contact, it's not to say that you can't meet somebody randomly. Like, I met my husband on the Q train, so do you. But I will say...

(LAUGHTER)

SEGARRA: Wow.

DUKULY: I did. I know. We're like, let's talk about that.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: And he didn't murder me, so you know...

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Love that for you.

DUKULY: (Laughter) Exactly. But what I mean is, like, you know, it can be really nice when, like, you got a little social proof. This person knows this person. There's a little bit of responsibility to each other. Talking to friends, talking about your needs, that way other people can speak clearly about those desires and hopefully make connections. We all want to be, like, you know, matchmade in some way. Maybe it's not that type of relationship or a romantic relationship. But it could be a mentor or a mentee.

SEGARRA: OK. I imagine there are also going to be more scenarios where potential mentees are coming to you, right?

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: How do you figure out if it might be a good fit?

DUKULY: OK, so a few different things. First, there's, like, starting with yourself. Do I have time to offer this person? Can I be honest with this person? Sometimes it can be really flattering when somebody comes to you and they're like, hey, I admire you; I would love your support in this thing. And at least for me, like, if somebody, like, emails me, I'm probably going to answer just because, like, I don't - like, it's rude.

SEGARRA: It's very kind.

DUKULY: And, like, I just want to be nice. Like, I just want to be helpful. I might not be able to, like, take you to your finish line, but it's just like, I'll respond. But that's very different than saying, like, I'm going to be in a relationship with you. So there's the assessment of time, energy, all of those types of things.

Another thing that I want to kind of gauge is what they're looking for. So what can really be unfortunate or kind of be - go wrong very early in a mentor-mentee relationship is when the person's like, I just want help. I'm like, with what? Like, I'm trying to figure it out, too. Like, what do you want help with? And it's - I'm not saying you have to have the clear picture, like, give me point A, B, C, you know, this angle, that angle. But there needs to be some level of clarity. If somebody is unclear with you, it's going to be really hard to actually please them. Like, what do they want, and how can you actually serve that well?

And then also, like, what are your expectations, right? Like, is that OK? So if I say to somebody, hey - like, I had a mentor that I worked with for probably about, like, six months, and she wanted it just for that period of time. She was going through, like, a project that she was working on. And, you know, I was like, listen; I will respond to you - like, if you text me or something, I might not be able to respond this time, but I'll respond, you know, at this time. Like, you know, and it seems so transactional, but it was really important because we eliminated any assumptions or fears or things in a relationship that might be scary. Like, I texted, and they didn't text me back. What's going to happen? But here's the thing. Somebody might say, you know what? I actually need a relationship where I'm getting more of that versus, like, what you can give, and it helps us to pick each other.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: So I just think you want to be really clear up front on both sides so both parties can decide if that's what they're looking for.

SEGARRA: Somebody quoted Brene Brown to me yesterday - clarity is kindness.

DUKULY: I agree. Thank you, Brene.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGARRA: It's very - it's helpful to say to someone, this is what I can offer, and this is what I can't.

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: And maybe then you're one of their mentors. You know?

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: I guess with that in mind, though, do you have to have, like, the official-define-the-relationship talk? Like, is this will you be my mentor kind of thing?

DUKULY: Yeah. You know, it doesn't always start that way.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: But I do think that clear is kind. And I do think that, specifically, when you, like, are wanting something from someone, if it's not clear, it just - like, it's bound to set you up for failure. The only person I have, like, an unclear mentor relationship with is, like, Oprah, you know, 'cause...

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: ...I don't know her, and she's not - like, you know what I mean? That's like, OK, girl...

SEGARRA: She doesn't know that she's your mentor.

DUKULY: ...Whatever you want to do, whatever you want to give me, I will take. But, like, in most situations, it's just, like - it's so important to be able to say, like, I'm choosing to be - and you don't have to have the definition of, you are my mentor. If you want to say, this is my friend who supports me, if you want to say, this is my big brother, if you want - whatever it is you want to use is fine, but there needs to be an understanding. It's the same reason why, like, in any relationship, whether it be romantic or a friendship, like, we're colleagues, we're friends, we're whatever, and then we sort of assign, you know, different responsibilities within those relationships. And I think that's what can be helpful in terms of boundaries. Usually, sometimes those things blur. But if you notice, that's often why it tends to get messy because, suddenly, it was one thing, and now it's another thing. So for this sake, because you want something specific, I think you need to define it.

SEGARRA: What I heard in your earlier answer was that the mentee should kind of drive the relationship and say, this is what I'm looking for; this is what I'd like help with. I also imagine that some folks, especially if they're earlier in their careers, might not know exactly how to create that structure. Are there ways as a mentor that you can help guide them and say, like, here's an example of what you might be looking for, or here's what would be helpful for me to know?

DUKULY: Yeah, absolutely. I think you want to be really clear about the fact that, like, it's OK to change their mind. It's OK to evolve. And also be really clear, like, if something changes and it doesn't align with our relationship anymore, like, let me know. Like, it's not just that a mentor should be like, you do this, this and this. This person needs to be bought into the relationship. It is a relationship. So a mentor can offer the advice for structure, but it needs to be like, what do you think? Bring the mentee into the experience, and if they are like, I don't know what I think, I'm just trusting you, you can be like, OK, cool. Let's give it a try, and we'll see if that works, and next time I'm going to have you try this. We really want to kind of build, I think, some reciprocity in the relationship so that the person does feel comfortable leading and deciding what actually works for them.

SEGARRA: OK. So if you are structuring this, is there a best practice in terms of how often you meet?

DUKULY: Yes. So one of the pieces of - one of the findings that we found in our research with Qualtrics was that highly successful mentor-mentee relationships - and by highly successful, I mean people who believe that in a six-month period, they solved about 70 to 81% of their goals with their mentor - actually met one time a week.

SEGARRA: OK.

DUKULY: And so that's interesting because I have to - yeah. I see some of these people are like, oh. And...

SEGARRA: Kind of a lot.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: We're all like, time - where is it? You know, and then we're, like, home on the couch.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: Netflix is like, are you still watching this?

SEGARRA: Yeah (laughter).

DUKULY: But, like, that's what it is. And I think it is about cadence, right? So one time a week - even for me, I was like, oh, that's a lot. But people usually do this in bursts. So you might say, I'm doing this for a three-month period. I'm doing this for a six-month period. It's usually not, like, an ongoing, belaboring thing. It's saying we're going to take a stint, and we're going to do this, and we're going to get something done. And so to me, I'm like, OK, that makes sense. But yeah, one time a week - you know, if you can't push that because life, you know, I'd say even if it's, like, once every other week, but really trying to commit to something that, like, forces you to be in action is really meaningful.

SEGARRA: What would you say are some common mistakes that mentors make?

DUKULY: One of the first that comes to mind is not asking for anything in return, which sounds maybe wrong, but here's why. If I'm giving up time, energy, resources, I want to know, like, how it's going for you. I want to know that you had a win. One of the first people I mentored, she was so great about this, and it really set the tone for future mentee, like, expectations that I had. Like, she would be like, hey, I just wanted to let you know I had this interview, and I didn't get the job, but I really learned this thing. And I was like, awesome, great. But it, like, guided me because it actually felt like it wasn't just about, like, the time. It's like, she really felt invested in making sure that, like, I was really part of her journey. It wasn't just transactional. So...

SEGARRA: Explicitly ask for that from your mentees.

DUKULY: Yeah. Love the idea of saying, like, hey, I want to be in the loop of, like, how things are going for you. Can you keep me posted? I would love to know if you try something and it doesn't work. I would love to know if you try something and it does work.

SEGARRA: OK, I want to try something.

DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: So I am going to - and I love this because I get to, like, put on my pretend hat...

DUKULY: Let me get comfy.

SEGARRA: ...And be maybe sometimes kind of annoying.

DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: OK. So I'm going to give you some scenarios.

DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: Let's say that I have approached you to be my mentor, and you're probably going to say yes, but you want to clarify what we're going to work on together and how you can help.

DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: Hey, Massella. I just admire you so much. I think you're really great.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGARRA: And I was wondering if maybe you could give me some advice on my career stuff.

DUKULY: Yeah. You know, Mari, I really appreciate that. I am great. I believe that about myself, too.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: But yeah, I would love to do it. But before we kind of, like, agree to all of this, I'm just curious. You said talk about your career. Is there something specific that you're hoping to discuss?

SEGARRA: Just - I want to be you.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: OK. I appreciate that, and what I'll say is this. I want to be able to best help you. I want to feel like any time that we spend together really feels worthwhile to you, and I think that the best way I can do that is by making sure that you are coming into yourself, not coming into trying to be like me. So I totally get that sometimes it can feel overwhelming to know exactly what that is, but maybe we can try this out, like, have our first meet and see how it goes, and maybe in that meeting we can define two or three things that you would like to, like, take away from this that feel really tangible. That way we can, like, measure it in time and see if it's working. How does that sound?

SEGARRA: OK. I think that went well.

DUKULY: I think so, too.

SEGARRA: But I was super awkward, right? And I came in like...

DUKULY: A little off (ph), a little off.

SEGARRA: I just, like, have heart eyes, you know, when I look at you, and then you're sort of giving me homework to do, too.

DUKULY: (Laughter) Yeah.

SEGARRA: Like, come to me next time with a list of things, three things that you'd really like to learn, three skills. OK, one last one.

DUKULY: OK.

SEGARRA: I am your mentee, and you are ready to break up with me.

DUKULY: Ooh. All right.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGARRA: What do you say?

DUKULY: Hey, Marielle. How are you?

SEGARRA: Hey. So good.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: Hopefully good without me.

(LAUGHTER)

SEGARRA: I love these sessions so much, by the way, Massella. Like, I feel like - I just love talking to you every week. You're, like, the highlight of my week.

DUKULY: Thank you so much.

(LAUGHTER)

DUKULY: So I do want to talk about that, though, because beyond enjoying maybe, like, our relationship - because I really like you; like, I really like talking to you - do you feel like it's helping you move along in the goals that we discussed earlier when we first started meeting?

SEGARRA: I think maybe just talking to you makes me feel calm and like I can approach job interviews and things with confidence and - I don't know. It just keeps me really grounded, this relationship.

DUKULY: I mean, I definitely think that that is a huge benefit. But that being said, like, I want to make sure that you're really getting something tangible out of this. I'm curious. Like, we can approach this a few ways. One, does it feel helpful for us to maybe be a little bit more explicit about those goals and see if we can be better about reaching them? Or, two, are you thinking that maybe there are new goals that we can look at? And then a third option is that, like, maybe this isn't the right fit. And if I'm not the right person for you, I want to make sure I can help you find somebody who is.

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DUKULY: It's scary.

SEGARRA: It's actually kind of hard to do these. I get - like, my heart starts pounding a little bit when I have to say, like, awkward things to people, even though that wasn't a real conversation.

DUKULY: (Laughter) But it's real.

SEGARRA: But yeah, that was great. It's real. It does happen.

DUKULY: I've done something like this before. And, like, this is one point that I want to make so clear. And this is not just for mentor-mentee relationships. This is for all relationships. You can enjoy someone, and they could be not the right thing for you - a job, romance, whatever. Right? You know what I mean? Like, there are people who are like, I like you a lot.

SEGARRA: Yeah.

DUKULY: And also, this isn't serving me. And I think we have to make that distinction. I think sometimes people get real caught up in, like, I like you.

SEGARRA: Yeah. I love that. I love broadening out at the end of the episode to something, to - sometimes we do that, and the final note is just, like, take a deep breath.

DUKULY: Yeah.

SEGARRA: Today it's, you know, you might like something, and it might not be serving you.

DUKULY: Yeah, 100%.

SEGARRA: Yeah. Massella, thank you so much. This has been really great.

DUKULY: Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

DUKULY: Thank you, everyone. What a pleasure.

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SEGARRA: Love that conversation with Massella. And she had a lot of good tips. So let's recap. If you want to be a mentor, think about what you have to offer. Do you have particular skills? Like you're really good at public speaking or data analysis or whatever. And what kind of time do you have to offer? Also, once you're considering a mentee, ask them what they're looking for. What are you trying to achieve together? Once you are working together, be clear about how often you're available to meet, how quickly you might email or text them back and basically what your expectations are of each other. Ask for something in return, meaning it's not too much to ask your mentee to tell you how they're doing or to keep you updated on how the job search is going. And remember, you should be learning from your mentee, too. This is a relationship, and we all have something to teach each other.

For more LIFE KIT, check out our other episodes. We have one with Massella about how to give good feedback, and we have another episode about how to be a good mentee. You can find those at npr.org/lifekit. And if you love LIFE KIT and want more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr.org/lifekitnewsletter.

This episode of LIFE KIT was produced by Sylvie Douglis. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan, and our digital editor is Malaka Gharib. Meghan Keane is the supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is the executive producer. Our production team also includes Andee Tagle, Audrey Nguyen, Clare Marie Schneider, Mia Venkat and Danielle Nett. Julia Carney is our podcast coordinator. Engineering support comes from Carleigh Strange, Patrick Murray and Neil Tevault. Special thanks to Devon Williams and Jessica Goldstein. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

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Copyright ? 2023 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website?terms of use?and?permissions?pages at?www.npr.org?for further information.

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瑪麗埃爾·塞加拉，主持人：

這是NPR的LIFE套件，其中包含幫助您將其組合在一起的工具。

（音樂原聲）

塞加拉：嘿，大家好。瑪麗埃爾·塞加拉在這里。生活中會發(fā)生這樣的事情。一旦你在工作、愛好或育兒方面獲得了一些經(jīng)驗，你可能想分享它，傳授你正在學習的東西，讓下一個爬你身后山的人更容易一些。你想成為一名導(dǎo)師。在今天的LIFE KIT上，我們有一個關(guān)于指導(dǎo)的特別節(jié)目。這是我和媒體和咨詢公司Charter的工作場所戰(zhàn)略和創(chuàng)新主管Massella Dukuly之間的對話。我們在布魯克林的On Air Fest上在觀眾面前現(xiàn)場表演，這是音頻制作者的活動。我們談?wù)撜l可以成為導(dǎo)師，分享有關(guān)如何構(gòu)建這些關(guān)系的技巧。我們甚至做了一些角色扮演，她是導(dǎo)師，我是她睜大眼睛的學員。

（音樂原聲）

SEGARRA：所以我想早點談?wù)勎业囊晃淮髮W教授所說的WIIFM。

馬塞拉·杜庫利：好的。

塞加拉：她——我在大學里上過這堂演講課。她會在黑板上寫下WIIFM，這意味著，這對我有什么好處？我試圖在任何演講中記住這一點。但總的來說，如果你在談?wù)撃臣?，就像，我相信我們都有興趣成為我們內(nèi)心善良的導(dǎo)師。而且，這不是單方面的關(guān)系，對吧？就像，成為導(dǎo)師還有其他原因。

杜庫利：百分之一千。因此，我的組織Charter，我們最近實際上與Qualtrics合作，對導(dǎo)師與學員的關(guān)系進行了一些研究。具體來說，就像，我們試圖弄清楚，你能虛擬地建立穩(wěn)固的導(dǎo)師和學員關(guān)系嗎？事實是你絕對可以。但我們意識到的另一個發(fā)現(xiàn)是，就像成功的導(dǎo)師與學員的關(guān)系一樣，導(dǎo)師經(jīng)常覺得他們得到了一些東西。所以，我認為真正不幸的是，我們傾向于假設(shè)，你知道，如果你是一個導(dǎo)師，你只是，就像，善意地給予你的心，如此可愛，真的很好。但真的不應(yīng)該是這樣。

當你思考時，你知道 - 導(dǎo)師能得到什么？- 我想說，首先，這是他們發(fā)展技能的機會。擅長一件事并不意味著你擅長幫助別人擅長那件事。因此，學習能夠教學，以一種真正富有成效的方式進行交流，是其他收獲之一。我認為，從本質(zhì)上講，它通常會讓人們在他們正在做的事情上做得更好。

其次，我還要說，新視角。這方面的一個例子 - 我有一個朋友有一個學員。她會對我說，她沒想到這段關(guān)系中最瘋狂的事情之一就是她非常欣賞這個人冒險的事實，比如，會對所有事情都說“是”，因為被指導(dǎo)者認為這只是一個成長的機會。這真的讓她能夠思考如何在生活中更有意識地冒險。而且，你知道，隨著關(guān)系的發(fā)展，她意識到她正在承擔更多的風險。這感覺非常值得。

塞加拉： 好的。那么誰能成為導(dǎo)師呢？

杜庫利：我的意思是，任何人都可以。但這確實需要勤奮和了解如何建立對您和學員都有意義的結(jié)構(gòu)。所以為了很容易分解它，我想說，誰能成為導(dǎo)師？首先，有人渴望成為導(dǎo)師，有人愿意構(gòu)建與人的關(guān)系。這可以是建立節(jié)奏，建立關(guān)系中的責任。而且，就像，對于它的價值，有時可能很難。就像，作為人類，我們并不總是那么擅長說，這就是我需要你做的。因此，如果你想讓你的導(dǎo)師和學員關(guān)系運作良好，你就需要考慮這些事情。

SEGARRA：你可以得到的另一件事，你可以從成為導(dǎo)師中獲得的另一個價值，可能是學習如何進行這些對話以及如何溝通。

杜庫利：當然。絕對。。。

塞加拉：是的。

杜庫利： ...因為如果這些事情沒有發(fā)生或運作不佳，你將需要談?wù)撍鼈儭?/p>

塞加拉：是的。

杜庫利：而且，你知道，有時沖突會讓人感到不舒服?；蛘哂袝r反饋可能很可怕。但這對于確保你不會延長一段關(guān)系真的很重要。想想你最終造成的損害，如果你不直言不諱地說這感覺不對，或者這不起作用，或者這就是我需要的。

塞加拉：對。所以如果你沒有時間，也許，比方說，指導(dǎo)某人......

杜庫利：是的。

塞加拉： ...但是你想以某種方式幫助他們，你認為他們很有才華，也許你提出做一個介紹......

杜庫利：對。

塞加拉： ...給他們的人?；蛘?- 是的，或者幫助他們結(jié)識有時間并且可以成為他們導(dǎo)師的其他人。

杜庫利：當然。絕對。

塞加拉：是的。還行。因此，如果你確實想成為一名導(dǎo)師，如果你對此感到興奮，你在哪里找到學員？

杜庫利：這很棘手，因為有一個空間，就像，你不想對某人居高臨下，然后看著你。我可以幫你。就像，那不...

（笑聲）

杜庫利：這聽起來不太好。我認為，就像 - 這就是事情的核心，尤其是對于學員，這是關(guān)于建立關(guān)系的。你真的想要一個覺得他們可以對你開放和脆弱的人。所以我認為要做的核心事情之一就是非常積極 - 積極明確地表達你想要什么，所以能夠說一些類似的話，嘿，就像，我覺得我有X，Y和Z技能。我不會，你知道，把它說成，就像，我什么都很棒。我想幫助每個人。它說，我 - 你知道，我真的很喜歡溝通。我認為這是我，你知道的，感覺自己很精通，或者覺得我做得很好。我很樂意支持那些對此還不那么有信心的人，并讓人們可以自己破譯他們的需求是什么。

也許你在工作場所就是這樣做的。也許你在學校就是這樣做的。另一件事 - 我看到它實際上非常有幫助的方式是，就像，與朋友分享它，對朋友說，嘿，我真的很有興趣與某人分享這種特殊的技能。如果您認識任何可能感興趣的人，請告訴我。我發(fā)現(xiàn)特別是當有一個接觸點時——當我說接觸點時，并不是說你不能隨機認識某人。就像，我在Q列車上遇到了我的丈夫，你也是。但我會說...

（笑聲）

塞加拉： 哇。

杜庫利：我做到了。我知道。我們就像，讓我們談?wù)勥@個。

（笑聲）

杜庫利： 他沒有謀殺我，所以你知道...

（笑聲）

身份不明的人：喜歡你。

杜庫利：（笑聲）沒錯。但我的意思是，你知道，當你得到一點社會證明時，這真的很好。這個人認識這個人。對彼此有一點責任。與朋友交談，談?wù)撃愕男枨?，這樣其他人就可以清楚地談?wù)撨@些愿望，并希望建立聯(lián)系。我們都想以某種方式匹配。也許這不是那種關(guān)系或浪漫關(guān)系。但它可以是導(dǎo)師或?qū)W員。

塞加拉： 好的。我想還會有更多的場景，潛在的學員來找你，對吧？

杜庫利：是的。

SEGARRA：你如何確定它是否合適？

杜庫利：好的，所以一些不同的事情。首先，比如，從你自己開始。我有時間提供這個人嗎？我可以對這個人誠實嗎？有時，當有人來找你時，他們說，嘿，我很佩服你;我希望你在這件事上的支持。至少對我來說，比如，如果有人給我發(fā)電子郵件，我可能會回答，就像，我不 - 就像，這很粗魯。

塞加拉： 非常親切。

杜庫利：而且，就像，我只是想表現(xiàn)得好一點。就像，我只是想提供幫助。我可能無法，比如，帶你到終點線，但就像，我會回應(yīng)。但這和說，比如，我要和你談戀愛是非常不同的。所以有對時間，能量的評估，所有這些類型的東西。

我想衡量的另一件事是他們正在尋找什么。因此，真正不幸或某種程度上 - 在導(dǎo)師與學員關(guān)系的早期出錯是當這個人喜歡時，我只是想要幫助。我想，用什么？就像，我也在試圖弄清楚。比如，你需要什么幫助？而且 - 我不是說你必須有清晰的畫面，比如，給我點A，B，C，你知道，這個角度，那個角度。但需要有一定程度的清晰度。如果有人對你不清楚，就很難真正取悅他們。比如，他們想要什么，你怎么能真正服務(wù)得好？

然后，比如，你的期望是什么，對吧？比如，可以嗎？因此，如果我對某人說，嘿 - 比如，我有一個導(dǎo)師，我可能一起工作了大約六個月，她想要它只是在這段時間內(nèi)。她正在經(jīng)歷一個她正在從事的項目。而且，你知道，我想，聽著;我會回復(fù)你——比如，如果你給我發(fā)短信或其他什么，我這次可能無法回復(fù)，但我會回復(fù)，你知道，在這個時候。就像，你知道，這看起來很交易，但這真的很重要，因為我們消除了任何假設(shè)、恐懼或關(guān)系中可能令人恐懼的事情。就像，我發(fā)短信，他們沒有給我回短信。會發(fā)生什么？但事情是這樣的。有人可能會說，你知道嗎？我實際上需要一種關(guān)系，在這種關(guān)系中，我得到了更多的這種關(guān)系，比如，你能給予什么，這有助于我們互相選擇。

塞加拉：是的。

杜庫利：所以我只是認為你想在雙方面前都非常清楚，這樣雙方就可以決定這是否是他們想要的。

SEGARRA：昨天有人向我引用了Brene Brown的話 - 清晰就是善良。

杜庫利：我同意。謝謝你，布萊恩。

塞加拉：是的。

（笑聲）

SEGARRA：這非常 - 對某人說，這是我能提供的，這是我不能提供的，這是有幫助的。

杜庫利：是的。

塞加拉：也許你是他們的導(dǎo)師之一。你知道的？

杜庫利：是的。

塞加拉：不過，我想考慮到這一點，你是否必須進行官方定義的關(guān)系談話？比如，你會成為我的導(dǎo)師嗎？

杜庫利：是的。你知道，它并不總是以這種方式開始。

塞加拉：是的。

杜庫利：但我確實認為清楚是善良的。我確實認為，具體來說，當你想從某人那里得到一些東西時，如果不清楚，它只是 - 就像，它注定會讓你失敗。我唯一與奧普拉有不清楚的導(dǎo)師關(guān)系的人是，比如，奧普拉，你知道，“因為......

（笑聲）

杜庫利： ...我不認識她，她也不認識——就像，你知道我的意思嗎？這就像，好吧，女孩...

塞加拉： 她不知道自己是你的導(dǎo)師。

杜庫利： ...無論你想做什么，你想給我什么，我都會接受。但是，就像，在大多數(shù)情況下，它只是，就像 - 能夠說，就像，我選擇成為 - 你不必有定義，你是我的導(dǎo)師。如果你想說，這是我支持我的朋友，如果你想說，這是我的大哥，如果你愿意——無論你想用什么都沒關(guān)系，但需要有一個理解。這也是為什么，在任何關(guān)系中，無論是浪漫的還是友誼的，比如，我們是同事，我們是朋友，我們是任何東西，然后我們在這些關(guān)系中分配不同的責任。我認為這就是在邊界方面有幫助的地方。通常，有時這些東西會模糊不清。但如果你注意到，這通常就是為什么它往往會變得混亂，因為突然之間，這是一回事，現(xiàn)在是另一回事。所以為了這個緣故，因為你想要一些具體的東西，我認為你需要定義它。

SEGARRA：我在你之前的回答中聽到的是，學員應(yīng)該推動這種關(guān)系，并說，這就是我正在尋找的;這就是我需要幫助的。我還想象，有些人，特別是如果他們處于職業(yè)生涯的早期，可能不知道如何創(chuàng)建這種結(jié)構(gòu)。作為導(dǎo)師，您是否可以幫助指導(dǎo)他們并說，例如，這是您可能正在尋找的示例，或者這是對我有幫助的信息？

杜庫利：是的，絕對是。我想你要非常清楚這樣一個事實，比如，改變他們的想法是可以的。進化是可以的。還要非常清楚，比如，如果有什么變化，它不再與我們的關(guān)系保持一致，比如，讓我知道。就像，不僅僅是導(dǎo)師應(yīng)該像，你做這個，這個和這個。這個人需要被收買進入這段關(guān)系。這是一種關(guān)系。因此，導(dǎo)師可以提供結(jié)構(gòu)建議，但它需要像，你怎么看？把學員帶入體驗中，如果他們喜歡，我不知道我在想什么，我只是相信你，你可以說，好吧，很酷。讓我們試一試，看看是否有效，下次我會讓你試試這個。我認為，我們真的想在關(guān)系中建立一些互惠關(guān)系，這樣這個人就會感到自在地領(lǐng)導(dǎo)和決定什么對他們真正有用。

塞加拉： 好的。因此，如果您正在構(gòu)建此結(jié)構(gòu)，那么在開會頻率方面是否有最佳實踐？

杜庫利：是的。因此，我們在與Qualtrics的研究中發(fā)現(xiàn)的一個發(fā)現(xiàn)是，非常成功的導(dǎo)師 - 學員關(guān)系 - 非常成功，我的意思是那些相信在六個月內(nèi)，他們與導(dǎo)師解決了大約70%到81%的目標的人 - 實際上每周見面一次。

塞加拉： 好的。

杜庫利：所以這很有趣，因為我必須 - 是的。我看到其中一些人說，哦。和。。。

塞加拉：有點多。

（笑聲）

杜庫利：是的。

塞加拉：是的。

杜庫利：我們都喜歡，時間——它在哪里？你知道，然后我們就像在沙發(fā)上回家一樣。

塞加拉：是的。

杜庫利：Netflix就像，你還在看這個嗎？

塞加拉：是的（笑聲）。

杜庫利：但是，就像，就是這樣。我認為這是關(guān)于節(jié)奏的，對吧？所以每周一次 - 即使對我來說，我也想，哦，這很多。但人們通常會一連串地這樣做。所以你可能會說，我這樣做了三個月。我這樣做了六個月。這通常不是，就像，一個持續(xù)的，費力的事情。它說我們要休息一段時間，我們要做這件事，我們要做點什么。所以對我來說，我想，好吧，這是有道理的。但是，是的，每周一次 - 你知道，如果你不能推動它，因為生活，你知道，我會說，即使它，比如，每隔一周一次，但真正試圖致力于一些事情，比如，迫使你采取行動真的很有意義。

SEGARRA：你認為導(dǎo)師們常犯的錯誤是什么？

杜庫利：首先想到的就是不要求任何回報，這聽起來可能是錯誤的，但這就是原因。如果我放棄時間、精力、資源，我想知道，比如，對你來說，情況如何。我想知道你贏了。作為我指導(dǎo)的第一批人之一，她對此非常滿意，這確實為未來的學員定下了基調(diào)，就像我的期望一樣。就像，她會說，嘿，我只是想讓你知道我有這次面試，我沒有得到這份工作，但我真的學到了這件事。我當時想，太棒了，很棒。但它，就像，引導(dǎo)我，因為它實際上感覺它不僅僅是時間。就像，她真的覺得很投入，以確保我真的是她旅程的一部分。這不僅僅是交易。所以。。。

塞加拉：明確要求你的學員這樣做。

杜庫利：是的。喜歡說，嘿，我想進入循環(huán)的想法，比如，事情進展如何。你能及時通知我嗎？我很想知道您是否嘗試某些方法并且不起作用。我很想知道您是否嘗試過某些東西并且確實有效。

塞加拉： 好吧，我想嘗試一些東西。

杜庫利：好的。

塞加拉： 所以我要去——我喜歡這個，因為我可以戴上假裝的帽子......

杜庫利：讓我舒服一點。

塞加拉： ...有時可能有點煩人。

杜庫利：好的。

塞加拉： 好的。所以我要給你們一些場景。

杜庫利：好的。

SEGARRA：假設(shè)我已經(jīng)找到你做我的導(dǎo)師，你可能會說是的，但你想澄清我們將要合作做什么，以及你能如何提供幫助。

杜庫利：好的。

塞加拉： 嘿，馬塞拉。我只是太佩服你了。我覺得你真的很棒。

（笑聲）

SEGARRA：我想知道你能不能給我一些關(guān)于我職業(yè)的建議。

杜庫利：是的。你知道，瑪麗，我真的很感激。我很棒。我也相信我自己。

（笑聲）

杜庫利：但是，是的，我很想這樣做。但在我們同意這一切之前，我只是好奇。你說談?wù)勀愕穆殬I(yè)。你希望討論一些具體的事情嗎？

塞加拉： 只是——我想成為你。

（笑聲）

杜庫利：好的。我很欣賞這一點，我要說的是這個。我希望能夠最好地幫助你。我想覺得我們在一起度過的任何時間對你來說都是值得的，我認為我能做到的最好方法是確保你進入你自己，而不是試圖像我一樣。所以我完全理解，有時確切地知道那是什么會讓人感到不知所措，但也許我們可以嘗試一下，比如，第一次見面，看看進展如何，也許在那次會議上，我們可以定義兩三件你想做的事情，比如，從這個感覺非常有形的東西中帶走。這樣我們就可以及時測量它，看看它是否有效。聽起來怎么樣？

塞加拉： 好的。我認為進展順利。

杜庫利：我也這么認為。

塞加拉：但是我超級尷尬，對吧？我進來就像...

杜庫利：有點不對勁，有點不對勁。

SEGARRA：我只是，就像，有心的眼睛，你知道，當我看著你時，然后你也給我布置家庭作業(yè)。

杜庫利：（笑聲）是的。

SEGARRA：比如，下次來找我，列出一些東西，三件你真正想學的東西，三項技能。好的，最后一個。

杜庫利：好的。

塞加拉： 我是你的學員，你準備和我分手。

杜庫利：哦。好吧。

（笑聲）

塞加拉：你說什么？

杜庫利：嘿，瑪麗埃爾。你好嗎？

塞加拉： 嘿。很好。

（笑聲）

杜庫利：希望沒有我很好。

（笑聲）

SEGARRA：順便說一下，我非常喜歡這些會議，Massella。就像，我覺得 - 我只是喜歡每周和你說話。你，就像，我一周的亮點。

杜庫利：非常感謝。

（笑聲）

杜庫利：所以我確實想談?wù)勥@一點，因為除了享受我們的關(guān)系之外，因為我真的很喜歡你;比如，我真的很喜歡和你說話——你覺得這有助于你實現(xiàn)我們之前剛開始見面時討論的目標嗎？

SEGARRA：我想也許只是和你說話會讓我感到平靜，就像我可以自信地對待工作面試和事情一樣——我不知道。它只是讓我真正接地氣，這種關(guān)系。

杜庫利：我的意思是，我絕對認為這是一個巨大的好處。但話雖如此，我想確保你真的從中得到了一些有形的東西。我很好奇。就像，我們可以通過幾種方式解決這個問題。第一，也許對這些目標更明確一點，看看我們是否可以更好地實現(xiàn)這些目標，這對我們來說是否有幫助？或者，第二，你是否認為也許我們可以考慮新的目標？然后第三種選擇是，也許這不是合適的。如果我不是適合你的人選，我想確保我能幫你找到合適的人選。

（笑聲，掌聲）

杜庫利：太可怕了。

SEGARRA：實際上很難做到這些。我明白了——就像，當我不得不對人們說一些尷尬的事情時，我的心開始有點跳動，即使這不是一次真正的對話。

杜庫利：（笑聲）但這是真的。

塞加拉：但是，是的，那很棒。這是真的。它確實發(fā)生了。

杜庫利：我以前做過這樣的事情。而且，就像，這是我想說清楚的一點。這不僅僅是針對導(dǎo)師與學員的關(guān)系。這適用于所有關(guān)系。你可以享受某人，但他們可能不適合你——一份工作，浪漫，隨便什么。右？你知道我的意思？就像，有些人喜歡，我很喜歡你。

塞加拉：是的。

杜庫利：而且，這對我不利。我認為我們必須做出這種區(qū)分。我認為有時人們真的會陷入其中，比如，我喜歡你。

塞加拉：是的。我喜歡這個。我喜歡在劇集結(jié)束時擴大到某件事，有時我們會這樣做，最后的音符只是，就像，深呼吸。

杜庫利：是的。

SEGARRA：今天，你知道，你可能喜歡一些東西，但它可能不會為你服務(wù)。

杜庫利：是的，100%。

塞加拉：是的。馬塞拉，非常感謝你。這真的很棒。

杜庫利：謝謝。

（掌聲）

杜庫利：謝謝大家。真是太高興了。

（音樂原聲）

塞加拉：喜歡和馬塞拉的對話。她有很多很好的建議。因此，讓我們回顧一下。如果你想成為一名導(dǎo)師，想想你必須提供什么。你有特別的技能嗎？就像你真的很擅長公開演講或數(shù)據(jù)分析或其他什么。你必須提供什么樣的時間？此外，一旦您考慮了學員，請詢問他們在尋找什么。你們想一起實現(xiàn)什么目標？一旦你們一起工作，就要清楚你們多久見面一次，你們可以多快地給他們發(fā)電子郵件或短信，以及你們對彼此的期望是什么。要求一些回報，這意味著要求你的學員告訴你他們過得怎么樣，或者讓你了解求職的最新情況并不過分。請記住，您也應(yīng)該向您的學員學習。這是一種關(guān)系，我們都有一些東西可以互相教導(dǎo)。

有關(guān)更多生活套件，請查看我們的其他劇集。我們和馬塞拉有一個關(guān)于如何提供良好反饋的節(jié)目，我們還有另一集關(guān)于如何成為一名優(yōu)秀的學員。您可以在 npr.org/lifekit 找到這些。如果您喜歡LIFE KIT并想要更多，請在 npr.org/lifekitnewsletter 訂閱我們的時事通訊。

LIFE KIT的這一集由Sylvie Douglis制作。我們的視覺編輯是Beck Harlan，我們的數(shù)字編輯是Malaka Gharib。梅根·基恩（Meghan Keane）是監(jiān)督編輯，貝絲·多諾萬（Beth Donovan）是執(zhí)行制片人。我們的制作團隊還包括Andee Tagle，Audrey Nguyen，Clare Marie Schneider，Mia Venkat和Danielle Nett。朱莉婭·卡尼是我們的播客協(xié)調(diào)員。工程支持來自Carleigh Strange，Patrick Murray和Neil Tevault。特別感謝Devon Williams和Jessica Goldstein。我是瑪麗埃爾·塞加拉。感謝您的聆聽。

（音樂原聲）

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