《紐約時(shí)報(bào)》對(duì)李鴻章的采訪
? 1896年，李鴻章被指派為清廷特使開(kāi)始了對(duì)俄國(guó)，德國(guó)，英國(guó)的歐洲訪問(wèn)之旅。1896年8月28日，李鴻章乘船來(lái)到了美國(guó)的紐約港，1896年9月2日上午，李鴻章在紐約華爾道夫飯店接受了記者的采訪，次日《紐約時(shí)報(bào)》發(fā)布了這次采訪的綜合報(bào)道。
以下為李鴻章與采訪記者的對(duì)話:
“Your Excellency has said many kind things of us,” was the reporter’s first question.” Will not your Excellency also tell us in what respect we have failed to come up to your expectations?”
美國(guó)記者：尊敬的閣下，您已經(jīng)談了我們很多事情，您能否告訴我們，什么是您認(rèn)為我們做得不好的事的呢？
“I could not say anything bad about America,” replied the Viceroy,” I have nothing to complain of in the receptions given me. They were all that I could have expected. But there is one thing that surprises and disappoints me. You have too many political parties. I have thought much about your parties. There are so many of them they must bring about confusion. Could not your newspapers try to unite them, for the best interests of the country?”
李鴻章：我不想批評(píng)美國(guó)，我對(duì)美國(guó)政府給予我的接待毫無(wú)怨言，這些都是我所期待的。只是一件事讓我吃驚，那就是你們國(guó)家有形形色色的政黨存在，而我只對(duì)其中一部分有所了解。其他這些政黨會(huì)不會(huì)使國(guó)家出現(xiàn)混亂呢？你們的報(bào)紙能靠國(guó)家利益將各個(gè)政黨聯(lián)合起來(lái)嗎？
“What, among the things your Excellency has seen in this country has interested you most?”
美國(guó)記者：那么閣下，您在這個(gè)國(guó)家的所見(jiàn)所聞中什么最使您最感興趣呢？
” I am delighted with everything that I have seen in America,” said Li,” Everything has pleased me so much that it is hard to say what has pleased me most. What has surprised me most has been the tall buildings, of twenty and more stories. I have never seen anything like them before, in China or in Europe. They seem so well ?constructed that they would resist any wind, perhaps; but we could not put them up in China, because the typhoon would soon blow them down. They would be terribly inconvenient were it not for your fine elevators.”
李鴻章：我對(duì)我在美國(guó)見(jiàn)到的一切都很喜歡，所有事情都讓我高興。最使我感到驚訝的是這些20層或更高的摩天大樓，我在中國(guó)和歐洲從沒(méi)見(jiàn)過(guò)這種高樓。這些樓看起來(lái)建得很牢固，也許很能抗風(fēng)，但中國(guó)不能建這么高的樓房，因臺(tái)風(fēng)會(huì)很快把它吹倒，而且高層建筑若沒(méi)有你們這樣好的電梯配套也很不方便。
“Does your Excellency favor the education of the common people of China?”
美國(guó)記者：閣下，您贊成貴國(guó)的普通百姓都接受教育嗎？
?“Our custom,” replied the Viceroy,” is to send all our boys to public schools. We have good schools all over China, but only those who can afford it send their boys to them. The poorer classes do not give their boys education. We have not so many schools or colleges as you have, but we are going to introduce more schools throughout our country.”
李鴻章：我們的習(xí)慣是送男孩上學(xué)，我們有很好的學(xué)校，但只得付得起學(xué)費(fèi)的富家子弟才能上學(xué)，窮人家的孩子確實(shí)沒(méi)有什么機(jī)會(huì)上學(xué)。我們現(xiàn)在還沒(méi)有你們這么多的學(xué)校和學(xué)堂，但我們計(jì)劃將來(lái)在國(guó)內(nèi)建立更多的學(xué)校。
“Does your Excellency favor the education of women?”
美國(guó)記者：閣下，您贊成婦女接受教育嗎？
The Ambassador paused for a moment and answered cautiously:“?Our Chinese girls are educated at home, by their governesses. Governesses are in all families that can afford them. We have no public schools for the girls, and have no higher educational institutions which they can attend. This is due to the fact that our customs are so different from yours, both in Europe and America. Perhaps we should study both systems and adopt the one best suited to us and our needs.”
李鴻章（停頓一會(huì)）：在我們清國(guó)，女孩在家中請(qǐng)女教師提供教育，有些有經(jīng)濟(jì)能力的家庭都會(huì)雇請(qǐng)女家庭教師。我們現(xiàn)在還沒(méi)有女子就讀的公立學(xué)校，也沒(méi)有更高一級(jí)的教育機(jī)構(gòu)。這是由于我們的風(fēng)俗習(xí)慣與你們（包括歐洲和美國(guó)）不同，也許我們應(yīng)該學(xué)習(xí)你們的教育制度，并將最適合我們國(guó)情的那種引入國(guó)內(nèi)，這確是我們所需要的。
“Does your Excellency expect any modification of the existing Chinese Exclusion act?” ventured one of there porters.
美國(guó)記者：總督閣下，您期待對(duì)現(xiàn)存的排華法案進(jìn)行任何修改嗎？
“I know that you are about to hold another election, and that there will necessarily be some changes in your Government. I can not say, therefore, anything in reference to any anticipated modification or repeal of the Geary Law. I expect, however, the aid of the American newspapers in securing just treatment of Chinese immigrants. I know that the newspaper has a tremendous influence in this country, and I hope that the entire press will aid China in securing the repeal, or at least a strong modification, of the Geary Law.”
李鴻章：我知道你們又將進(jìn)行選舉了，新政府必然會(huì)在施政上有些變化。因此，我不想在修改法案前發(fā)表任何要求廢除《格利法》(《排華法案》) 的言論，我只是期望美國(guó)新聞界能助清國(guó)移民一臂之力。我知道報(bào)紙?jiān)谶@個(gè)國(guó)家有很大的影響力，希望整個(gè)報(bào)界都能幫助清國(guó)僑民，呼吁廢除排華法案，或至少對(duì)《格利法》進(jìn)行較大修改。
“Will your Excellency give us your reasons for selecting your homeward route through Canada instead of through the United States? Was is because your Excellency ‘s countrymen have not always met with kind treatment in some of your Western States?”
美國(guó)記者：閣下，您能說(shuō)明選擇經(jīng)加拿大而非美國(guó)西部回國(guó)路線的理由嗎？是不是您的同胞在我國(guó)西部一些地區(qū)沒(méi)有受到善待？
“I have two reasons for not going through your Western States,” replied Li.” First: While I was High Commissioner of the Northern Ports of China I received complaints of the treatment of the Chinese who came into your country through California. These complaints set forth that the Chinese were not accorded their rights. And they have applied tome to aid them in securing the full recognition of their rights as immigrants to America. Now, by your Geary Law, instead of granting them equal rights with other immigrants, you have denied them their just privileges. I should not like, therefore, to go through the States that have treated the Chinese in this way, nor to have to receive delegations of Chinamen who would present to me petitions pleading for a recognition of their rights in the Western States.
李鴻章：我有兩個(gè)原因不愿經(jīng)過(guò)美國(guó)西部各州。第一，早在我在清國(guó)北方港口城市擔(dān)任高官時(shí)，就聽(tīng)到了很多加州清國(guó)僑民的抱怨。這些抱怨表明，清國(guó)人在那里未能獲得美國(guó)憲法賦予他們的權(quán)利，他們請(qǐng)求我?guī)椭麄兪顾麄兊拿绹?guó)移民身份得到完全承認(rèn)，并享受作為美國(guó)移民所應(yīng)享有的權(quán)利。而你們的《格利法》不但不給予他們與其他國(guó)家移民同等的權(quán)利，還拒絕保障他們合法的權(quán)益，因此我不希望經(jīng)過(guò)以這種方式對(duì)待我同胞的地方，也無(wú)法接受當(dāng)?shù)厝A人代表遞交的要求保證他們?cè)谖鞑扛髦輽?quán)益的請(qǐng)?jiān)感拧?/p>
第二，當(dāng)我還是一名優(yōu)秀的水手時(shí)，就知道必須學(xué)會(huì)自己照顧自己。我比別人年紀(jì)要大好多歲，從溫哥華回國(guó)的航程要比從舊金山出發(fā)更短些。我現(xiàn)在才知道，清國(guó)”皇后號(hào)”船體寬闊舒適，在太平洋的所有港口都難以找到如此之好的遠(yuǎn)洋客船。
“You are proud of yourselves, of your country. Your States represent the best type of modern civilization. You are proud of your liberty and your freedom; but is this freedom? This is not liberty, because you are prevented from utilizing cheap labor in your manufactories and on your farms. You are the most inventive people in the world, as is shown by the statistics of your Patent Office. You have more inventions than any other country; you are far ahead of Europe in this respect.
你們不是很為你們作為美國(guó)人自豪嗎？你們的國(guó)家代表著世界上最高的現(xiàn)代文明，你們因你們的民主和自由而自豪，但你們的排華法案對(duì)華人來(lái)說(shuō)是自由的嗎？這不是自由！因?yàn)槟銈儫o(wú)法禁止工廠和農(nóng)場(chǎng)使用這些廉價(jià)勞動(dòng)力。你們專利局的統(tǒng)計(jì)數(shù)據(jù)表明，你們是世界上最有創(chuàng)造力的人，你們發(fā)明的東西比任何其他國(guó)家的總和都多。在這方面，你們走在了歐洲的前面。
Besides, you do not confine yourselves to manufactures—you are an agricultural people, and you combine agriculture, commerce, and industry. You are not like England, which is the workshop of the world. You have devoted yourselves to all the means of progress and development. You are superior to the countries of Europe in the skill of your artisans, and in the quality of your manufactures;
因?yàn)槟銈儾幌拗颇銈冊(cè)谥圃鞓I(yè)方面的發(fā)展，搞農(nóng)業(yè)的人不限于搞農(nóng)業(yè)，他們還將農(nóng)業(yè)、商業(yè)和工業(yè)結(jié)合了起來(lái)。你們不象英國(guó)，他們只是世界的作坊。你們致力于一切進(jìn)步和發(fā)展的事業(yè)。在工藝技術(shù)和產(chǎn)品質(zhì)量方面，你們也領(lǐng)先于歐洲國(guó)家。
but, unfortunately, you are not able to compete with Europe, because your manufactures are dearer than theirs. “Your labor is so high that it makes the price of your products too high to compete successfully with the countries Europe. Labor is expensive, because you exclude the Chinese. It is your own fault. If you give to labor free competition you would have cheaper labor. The Chinese can live cheaper that the Irish or the other laboring classes of the United States. Your laboring classes hate the Chinese because they are the possessors of higher virtues than themselves.
但不幸的是，你們還競(jìng)爭(zhēng)不過(guò)歐洲，因?yàn)槟銈兊漠a(chǎn)品比他們的貴。這都是因?yàn)槟銈兊膭趧?dòng)力太貴，以致生產(chǎn)的產(chǎn)品因價(jià)格太高而不能成功地與歐洲國(guó)家競(jìng)爭(zhēng)。勞動(dòng)力太貴，是因?yàn)槟銈兣懦A工。這是你們的失誤。如果讓勞動(dòng)力自由競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，你們就能夠獲得廉價(jià)的勞力。華人比愛(ài)爾蘭人和美國(guó)其他勞動(dòng)階級(jí)都更勤儉，所以其他族裔的勞工仇視華人。
“I trust that the American newspapers will aid us in securing repeal of the Exclusion ”
? 我相信美國(guó)報(bào)界能幫助華人一臂之力，取消排華法案。
“Is there any desirable outlet for the investment of American capital in China?” asked the reporters.
美國(guó)記者：美國(guó)資本在清國(guó)投資有出路嗎？
“Wealth can be produced only by the combination of money, labor, and land,” replied Li very promptly,” and the Chinese Government will very gladly welcome any capital that seeks investment in the empire. Gen. Grant, who was one of my best friends, said to me:’ You must invite European and American capital to China to establish industrial enterprises, and assist the Chinese in the material development of their country and their great natural resources, but the administration of these enterprises must remain in the hands of the Chinese Government.’
李鴻章：只有將貨幣、勞動(dòng)力和土地都有機(jī)地結(jié)合起來(lái)，才會(huì)產(chǎn)生財(cái)富。清國(guó)政府非常高興地歡迎任何資本到我國(guó)投資。我的好朋友格蘭特將軍曾對(duì)我說(shuō)，你們必須要求歐美資本進(jìn)入清國(guó)以建立現(xiàn)代化的工業(yè)企業(yè)，幫助清國(guó)人民開(kāi)發(fā)利用本國(guó)豐富的自然資源。但這些企業(yè)的管理權(quán)應(yīng)掌握在清國(guó)政府手中。
We would be glad to have your capital find investment in China. The capital and skilled labor could be supplied by you, but the administration of the affairs of the railways, telegraph lines, & c., would have to be controlled by China. We must maintain our sovereign rights, and never allow anybody to touch our sacred privileges. I well remember Gen. Grant’s advice. All capitalists, whether American or European, can freely invest their money in enterprises in China.”
我們歡迎你們來(lái)華投資，資金和技工由你們提供。但是，對(duì)于鐵路、電訊等事物，要由我們自己控制。我們必須保護(hù)國(guó)家主權(quán)，不允許任何人危及我們的神圣權(quán)力。我將牢記格蘭特將軍的建議，所有資本，無(wú)論是美國(guó)的還是歐洲的，都可以自由來(lái)華投資。
“Would your Excellency favor the introduction into China of the newspaper as developed in this country and in Europe?”
美國(guó)記者：閣下，您贊成將美國(guó)的或歐洲的報(bào)紙介紹到貴國(guó)嗎？
“There are newspapers in China, but the Chinese editors, unfortunately, do not tell the truth. They do not, as your papers, tell ‘the truth.’ The editors in China are great economizer of the truth; they tell only a part of it. They do not have, therefore, the great circulation that your papers have. Because of this economy of the truth, our papers fail in the mission of a great press, to be one of the means of civilization.”
李鴻章：清國(guó)辦有報(bào)紙，但遺憾的是清國(guó)的編輯們不愿將真相告訴讀者，他們不像你們的報(bào)紙講真話，只講真話。清國(guó)的編輯們?cè)谥v真話的時(shí)候十分吝嗇，他們只會(huì)說(shuō)部分的真相，因此他們的報(bào)紙也沒(méi)有你們報(bào)紙這么大的發(fā)行量。由于不能誠(chéng)實(shí)地說(shuō)明真相，我們的報(bào)紙就失去了新聞本身的價(jià)值，也就未能成為廣泛傳播文明的方式了。
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