????????4月28日，駐英國大使劉曉明接受英國廣播公司（BBC）《尖銳對話》欄目（HARDtalk）資深主持人斯蒂芬·薩克（Stephen Sackur）在線專訪，就中國抗擊新冠肺炎疫情闡明立場，澄清事實，激濁揚清。

專訪實錄如下：

主持人：劉曉明大使，歡迎來到《尖銳對話》。

Sackur:?Ambassador Liu Xiaoming, welcome to Hardtalk.

劉大使：謝謝！很高興再次見到你。

Ambassador:?Thank you. Good to be with you again.

主持人：很高興你能在這艱難時期接受我們的采訪。先問一個簡單、直接的問題：你是否同意新冠肺炎病毒源自中國？

Sackur: We are delighted to have you on our program in this difficult time. Let me start actually with a very simple direct question: Do you accept that Covid-19 has its origins in China?

劉大使：病毒最早發(fā)現(xiàn)于武漢并不等于起源于武漢。根據(jù)多方信息，包括BBC的報道，病毒可能源自任何地方，甚至在航空母艦或潛艇中可以找到，在一些與中國很少聯(lián)系的國家中也可以找到，在從未去過中國的人群中可以找到。所以我們不能說它源自中國。

Ambassador: It was first discovered in Wuhan, but I can't say it's originated from Wuhan. According to many reports including the BBC, it can be anywhere. It can be found on aircraft carriers. It can even be found in the submarine. It is found in some countries which have very little connection with China and also can be found in groups of people who have never been to China. So we cannot say it's originated from China.

主持人：這個回答讓我有些困惑。顯然這是一種全新病毒，它起源于某個地方。根據(jù)免疫學(xué)家和病毒學(xué)家的說法，病毒由動物傳播給人類。毫無疑問，第一起病例發(fā)生在中國。你剛才說，病毒傳播到了世界各地，一些從未到過中國的人也被感染，顯然因為病毒已引發(fā)全球大流行病，但至關(guān)重要的問題是，它最初來自何處？

Sackur: I'm a little confused by that answer. Clearly, it is a new virus. It originated somewhere. It seems, according to all of the immunologists and virologists, they crossed from animals to humans. And there was a first case and then it spread. There is no doubt that the first case was in China. I’m wondering why you are telling me that it spread all over the world and people who caught it had never been to China. That is clear because it's become a pandemic. But the question that matters so much is: Where did it start?

劉大使：我認(rèn)為這個問題應(yīng)交由科學(xué)家來解答。據(jù)我了解，中國的首起病例是由張繼先醫(yī)生于2019年12月27日向中國地方衛(wèi)生主管部門報告的。我還看到報道，稱中國以外有些病例甚至遠(yuǎn)早于此。昨天英國報紙上的報道稱，英國的科學(xué)家、醫(yī)學(xué)專家在去年早些時候就曾警告政府，可能存在一種未知病毒。因此，我只能說中國第一例報告的病例于2019年12月27日發(fā)生在武漢。

Ambassador: I think this question is still up for scientists to decide. I read the report that the first case in China was reported on the 27th December by Dr. Zhang Jixian to Chinese local health authorities. But I also read reports that some of the cases were found to be much earlier than that. We read even the report by your newspapers yesterday that your scientists, medical advisers, even warned your government that there might be a virus unknown to us, much earlier, last year. So all I can say is that the first reported case in China was on the 27th of December in Wuhan.

主持人：我認(rèn)為不容置疑的是，專家們確信在武漢及其周邊地區(qū)發(fā)現(xiàn)了首例確診病例。你是否也認(rèn)為我們必須搞清楚疫情暴發(fā)初期到底發(fā)生了什么，以及哪些地方做得不對、哪些步驟走錯了，才導(dǎo)致病毒演變成全球大流行？

Sackur: I think there's no doubt experts believe the origin of the first outbreak, first examples of this Covid-19 virus to be found in human beings, came from Wuhan and the surrounding area in China. I just wonder whether you accept that it is very important that we understand exactly what happened at the beginning of this outbreak, that we understand frankly what mistakes and missteps were made, which allowed the first outbreak to become a global pandemic.

劉大使：我認(rèn)為這仍待商榷，我們得承認(rèn)有不同看法。病毒是在中國武漢首次發(fā)現(xiàn)的，但不能說它起源于武漢。我認(rèn)為這個問題應(yīng)當(dāng)留給科學(xué)家。

Ambassador: I think it is still debatable. I think we have to agree to disagree. I think it was first discovered in Wuhan, China, but I can't say it originated from Wuhan, because I would leave it to the scientists.

主持人：劉大使，病毒確實首先在武漢出現(xiàn)人傳人，并集中暴發(fā)。我想問的是，難道對已發(fā)生的事情進(jìn)行深入獨立調(diào)查、了解事實真相不重要嗎？我們可以利用這些信息避免悲劇再次發(fā)生。

Sackur: The point, Ambassador, surely is that the first mass outbreak where human beings transmitted the disease from one to another was undoubtedly in Wuhan, in China. And my point to you is: Is it not very important that what happened is deeply, independently investigated that we understand what happened, so we can use that information to prevent it from happening again?

劉大使：讓我給你介紹一下中國抗疫時間表。張繼先醫(yī)生首先于2019年12月27日上報了不明原因肺炎病例。中國衛(wèi)生部門和疾控中心在四天后，也就是12月31日以最短的時間通知了世界衛(wèi)生組織并與其他國家共享信息。中國還第一時間同世衛(wèi)組織分享病原體，在第一時間同世衛(wèi)組織和其他國家分享病毒基因序列。

Ambassador: Let me tell you the timeline of China's fight against this virus. It was first reported on the 27th of December by Dr. Zhang, and then Chinese health authorities and CDC notified the WHO four days later, on the 31st of December, in the shortest possible time, and then share this information with other countries. China also shared the discovery of the pathogen with the WHO in the shortest possible time, and also shared the information about the genetic sequence of the virus in the shortest possible time.

主持人：大使先生，讓我打斷一下，你忽視了非常重要的一點。12月30日，武漢醫(yī)生李文亮在微信群里告訴他的醫(yī)生同事，武漢出現(xiàn)了一種非常令人擔(dān)憂的新疾病，建議他的同事們必須穿防護(hù)服，以避免被感染。幾天后，他被公安局傳喚并被迫供認(rèn)散播虛假信息、嚴(yán)重干擾社會秩序。從那以后一直到一月份，中國政府一直在試圖掩蓋真相。

Sackur: Ambassador, let me just interrupt you on this question of timeline because you missed out one very important point. On December 30th, a doctor in Wuhan, Li Wenliang, used his chat group online to tell fellow doctors that there was a new and very worrying disease in Wuhan. He advised his colleagues that they must wear protective clothing to avoid this new infection. And just a couple of days later, he was summoned to the public security bureau. He was made to sign a letter in which he confessed to making false statements that had severely disturbed the social order. That was the beginning of an official cover-up, which continued through the month of January.

劉大使：現(xiàn)在我明白為什么一些人要鼓吹進(jìn)行所謂的獨立調(diào)查了，其實就是試圖羅織借口來批評中國掩蓋真相。但事實是，李文亮醫(yī)生不是“吹哨者”，如我剛才說的，張繼先醫(yī)生比李醫(yī)生早三天向衛(wèi)生部門報告，武漢市衛(wèi)生部門隨即向中央政府報告。四天后，也就是李醫(yī)生發(fā)出微信信息后一天，中國政府與世衛(wèi)組織及其他國家共享了這一信息。完全不存在所謂掩蓋事實。

Ambassador: As I said earlier, now I understand why there's a so-called call for an independent investigation. They try to find an excuse for them to criticize China for cover-up. But the fact is that Li Wenliang was not the first one who discovered this virus. As I told you, it was Dr. Zhang Jixian, and she reported 3 days earlier than Li Wenliang to the health authorities. Then, the health authorities in Wuhan reported to the central government, and then four days later, that means one day after Li Wenliang spread the word, the Chinese authorities shared the information with the WHO and other countries. No cover-up at all.

主持人：大使先生，實際上中方共享的信息非常有限。根據(jù)《華盛頓郵報》和美聯(lián)社獲得的內(nèi)部信息，中國國家衛(wèi)生健康委員會主任馬曉偉曾在2020年1月14日的內(nèi)部會議中對形勢做出了非常嚴(yán)峻的評估，他說復(fù)雜、集中案例表明病毒正在“人傳人”。但是第二天，中國疾病預(yù)防控制中心對外稱持續(xù)“人傳人”的風(fēng)險很低，疫情是可防可控的。因此，我再次認(rèn)為，有充足的證據(jù)表明中國在好幾個星期內(nèi)沒有說實話。

Sackur: With respect, Mr. Ambassador, the information that was shared was actually extremely limited, because, on January 14th, we now know this from leaks that have been given to the Washington Post and the Associated Press, we know that internally China's national health commission head, Mr. Ma Xiaowei, laid out a very grim assessment of what was happening. He said that the situation was severe. Complex, clustered cases suggest human to human transmission is happening, the memo said. The risk of transmission and spread is high, but in public, that was internal, but in public, the head of China's disease control emergency center, the very next day, said the risk of sustained human-to-human transmission is low, that it was preventable and controllable. So, I put it to you again, there is compelling evidence that China for weeks did not tell the truth.

劉大使：你都沒有給我足夠的時間回答問題，我還沒有答完關(guān)于李文亮的問題。所謂的“掩蓋事實”是不存在的。張醫(yī)生通過正常渠道向衛(wèi)生部門報告，但李文亮則在朋友圈傳播相關(guān)信息。在任何國家，如果出現(xiàn)極其危險的未知病毒等情況，都可能引起恐慌。我認(rèn)為警方傳喚李醫(yī)生，向他提出警告，要求他停止網(wǎng)上傳播，這不能稱為“隱瞞”。疫情已經(jīng)通過正規(guī)渠道上報，這種情況下要盡量避免恐慌。目前，英國政府也在打擊利用假消息制造恐慌以達(dá)到個人目的做法。有關(guān)李文亮醫(yī)生的事已經(jīng)有結(jié)論，中國中央政府接到報告后，即向武漢派出調(diào)查組，武漢市公安局決定撤銷對李醫(yī)生的訓(xùn)誡書。李醫(yī)生被追認(rèn)為烈士，被授予很高的榮譽。

Ambassador: You give me not enough time to answer your question. I haven't answered the question with regard to Li Wenliang. You talk about cover-up. That's not true. Dr. Zhang reported through a normal channel to health authorities, but Li spread this word among his friends. In any country when you have something like the virus which is dangerous to people's health when there is something unknown, there might be a panic. So I think the police authority summoned Li to warn him not to do it. You can't say this is a cover-up, since we reported through the normal channel. But on this, we need to make sure that there should be no panic. Even today, in the UK, I think your government is fighting misinformation. Some people try to use this to create panic for their own gain.?I think Li’s case is closed. After it's reported to the central authorities, the government sent investigation team down to Wuhan and find out that Li did the right thing and the police reprimand has been revoked. And Li was made a martyr and given the highest honor for his contribution.

主持人：李醫(yī)生去世的時候的確被中國人民視為英雄。

Sackur: Dr. Li was indeed regarded by the Chinese people as a hero when he died.

劉大使：不僅是中國人民，中國政府也是一樣，不能區(qū)別開來。

Ambassador: Not only by the Chinese people, but also regarded by the Chinese government. You cannot separate.

主持人：我認(rèn)為中國人民很清楚，政府對他們和世界其它國家并不坦率。1月14日，中國衛(wèi)健委的內(nèi)部文件稱存在人傳人、聚集性感染的證據(jù)，形勢嚴(yán)峻復(fù)雜，并要求有關(guān)內(nèi)容不公開，不上網(wǎng)。對此你如何解釋？

Sackur: With respect, I think the people of China are very aware, and I come back to it, that the Chinese government wasn't straight with them, nor with the outside world. Just tell me, if you can one more time, why on January 14 the national health commission document -- that was an internal document -- was labeled not to be spread on the internet, not to be publicly disclosed, in which they said that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission, clustered cases, severe and complex problem？

劉大使：我想你們的所有信息都來自《華盛頓郵報》，你們過于依賴美國媒體。我衷心希望你們能采納世衛(wèi)組織的信息。我們與世衛(wèi)組織分享了所有信息。我看了你對世衛(wèi)組織新冠特使納巴羅（Ｄavid Nabarro）博士的專訪，中國始終堅持公開、透明、第一時間與世衛(wèi)組織分享信息。一方面在中國國內(nèi)，我們必須保持高度警惕，采取最嚴(yán)格的防控措施，當(dāng)時對這個病毒并不十分了解。另一方面我們與世衛(wèi)組織和其他國家分享了信息和我們對病毒的認(rèn)知。

Ambassador: I think all your information is coming from Washington Post. I think you depend too much on American media. I really hope you will depend on the WHO for information. We share all the information with the WHO. I saw your interview with Mr. David Nabarro, and I think China has been straightforward, transparent, and swift in terms of sharing information with the WHO. Of course, inside China, we have to take cautious measures. We have to take strict measures to fight this virus. It is still unknown then. So people did not know what will happen, what this virus?was about. But on the one hand, we share our knowledge, our understanding, with the WHO, with the other countries.

↑薩克采訪世衛(wèi)組織新冠特使納巴羅博士，問：世衛(wèi)組織是否與中國互相勾結(jié)，納巴羅做了嚴(yán)正回應(yīng)

主持人：劉大使你是一位資深外交官，應(yīng)該了解目前世界上很多人并不相信中國的故事版本。幾個小時前，特朗普稱對中國的立場并不滿意，說中國完全可以把疫情控制在源頭，他還說美國正在進(jìn)行全面調(diào)查。美國副總統(tǒng)彭斯也列出一系列理由證明，中國沒有對世界說實話，應(yīng)對疫情在全世界蔓延并造成大規(guī)模死亡和經(jīng)濟損失負(fù)有責(zé)任，中國現(xiàn)在面臨巨大的問題。

Sackur: But Ambassador, with all respect, your problem is -- you're a very senior diplomat and you know this is a problem -- that many people around the world simply don't believe the Chinese version of events. Donald Trump, only a few hours ago, said that he is not happy at all with China's stance. They could have stopped the virus at the source, he said, we are undertaking a thorough investigation. And Vice President Mike Pence has listed a whole host of reasons why the United States believes that China was not straight with the world and is therefore culpable for the fact this pandemic is now causing so much death and so much economic damage right around the world. You have, as China, a massive problem now.

劉大使：我不同意這種說法。這是一些西方國家的說法。疫情發(fā)生后，中國第一時間與世衛(wèi)組織和其它國家通力合作，我們派出技術(shù)援助和醫(yī)療專家組，并向150多個國家提供醫(yī)療物資援助，受到這些國家的高度評價。我認(rèn)為，美國不能代表全世界，即使不少西方國家，包括英國、法國、德國，也對中國表示贊賞。你引用了特朗普總統(tǒng)的表態(tài)，我也想引用幾句他有關(guān)中國的表態(tài)。1月24日，在中國通報疫情大約1個月之后，特朗普總統(tǒng)說，“美國高度贊賞中國的努力和透明度”。6天之后，他表示“正在與中國緊密合作”。二月初，他又表示“習(xí)近平主席工作出色、疫情處理得很好”。

Ambassador: I don't think so. When you say that China has a massive problem, I think you're talking more about the Western world. Since the outbreak, China has had a very strong cooperation with the WHO and with many other countries. We sent technical assistance and experts to and provide medical supplies for more than 150 countries. All of them spoke highly of Chinese efforts. So I can't say the United States represents the world. And even in the Western world, we've been receiving appreciation from the countries like United Kingdom, from France, from Germany.?You quote President Trump. Let me also quote his comments about China. On the 24th of January, that was almost one month after we discovered this virus. He said, United States greatly appreciates China's efforts and transparency. Six days later and he said, they are working very hard, and we are working very closely with China. In early February, he said, President Xi is doing a great job, he handles it well.

主持人：自一月底以來，情況發(fā)生了很多變化。中國說，我們做了很多好事，向世界各國提供了醫(yī)療物資援助，但在外界眼里則是中國最近幾周正在全世界掀起一場假消息和宣傳攻勢。你提到中國與法國的關(guān)系良好，但法國政府剛召見了中國駐法大使，指責(zé)中國駐法使館散布假消息，使館網(wǎng)站稱法國老人在養(yǎng)老院里被拋棄，承受痛苦，孤獨地死去。中國外交部官員在社交媒體上散布“陰謀論”，稱美國軍人將病毒偷帶到中國。為什么中國要宣傳這樣的假消息？

Sackur: Things have changed a great deal since the end of January. You say, look at what we've done to deliver medical assistance and equipment around the world. What many people see is China running a campaign of disinformation and propaganda around the world in recent weeks. You say, we have a great relationship with France. The French just called in your counterpart, the Chinese Ambassador in France, accusing him of spreading disinformation because the Embassy website in Paris is claiming that old people in care homes in France are being abandoned to suffer and die alone. That’s a colleague of yours. Another colleague of yours in the Foreign Ministry use social media to promote the conspiracy theory that the US military has smuggled coronavirus into China. Why is your country running this disinformation campaign?

劉大使：我認(rèn)為你選錯了目標(biāo)。不是中國散布假消息，如果將中國領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人、中國外交官和中國大使的表態(tài)與美國領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人、美國外交官和美國大使做一個比較，你就會發(fā)現(xiàn)誰在散布假消息。

Ambassador: I think you've?picked the wrong target. It’s not China who started this campaign of disinformation. If you could compare China's statements and comments by Chinese leaders, Chinese diplomats, Chinese Ambassadors, with their American counterpart, you will know who is spreading disinformation.

主持人：你同意趙立堅關(guān)于“美國軍人將新冠病毒偷帶到中國”的說法嗎？你相信嗎？

Sackur: Do you agree with Zhao Lijian, the Foreign Ministry Spokesman who did put up the link suggesting that the US military has smuggled coronavirus into China? Is that something that you also believe?

劉大使：趙是轉(zhuǎn)推一些媒體的報道。我不明白你為什么抓住中國某個個人的言論，卻對美國國家領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人、高級官員，特別是美國最高級別外交官、國務(wù)卿發(fā)布的假消息視而不見？只要他談到中國，就沒有好話；中國在抗疫斗爭中向美國伸出援手，卻成了惡人。我實在不能理解。

Ambassador: I think what you're saying is that Mr. Zhao retweeted some media report. I do not know why you focus on some comments by individuals in China but miss the disinformation by senior officials, even the national leaders, of the United States who started this campaign of disinformation, especially by the top diplomat, the secretary of state? When it comes to China, there's not any good word about China. And China is really regarded as an evil, not as a country which has been lending a helping hand to America in the fight against this virus. I do not quite understand.

主持人：你認(rèn)為，目前由于疫情導(dǎo)致的各種指責(zé)給中美帶來外交危機有多嚴(yán)重？

Sackur: In your view, Ambassador, how deep is the crisis with the United States right now, that has been sparked by all of the accusations that have arisen from the coronavirus? How deep is the diplomatic crisis?

劉大使：中方當(dāng)然希望與美國保持良好關(guān)系。我曾兩次常駐美國，我始終相信中美和則兩利、斗則俱傷，我們有充分的理由與美方保持良好關(guān)系，但這應(yīng)該建立在相互信任、合作而不對抗的基礎(chǔ)上，雙方需要相向而行。疫情發(fā)生以來，習(xí)近平主席和特朗普總統(tǒng)保持密切溝通，通了兩次電話，討論國際抗疫合作。我想強調(diào)的是，中國不是美國的敵人，美國的敵人是新冠病毒，美國應(yīng)該找對目標(biāo)。

Ambassador: We certainly want to have good relations with the United States. I've been posted twice in Washington, DC. I always believe that China and the United States will gain from cooperation and lose from confrontation. And we have every reason to have a good relationship with the United States. But it has to be based on mutual trust, coordination and non-confrontation. But you need two to tango.?Since the outbreak, President Xi and President Trump have kept very close contact. They had two telephone conversations and compared notes, just as President Xi had two telephone conversations with Prime Minister Johnson. We want to build an international response to this virus.?I just want to let Americans know that China is not an enemy of the United States. It's the virus that is the enemy of the United States. They need to find the right target.

主持人：你發(fā)出了非常重要的信息。那么針對美國以及澳大利亞、英國等許多國家提出的、中方應(yīng)永久而不是臨時關(guān)閉從事野生動物交易的“濕貨市場”的要求，中方是否將作出一些積極姿態(tài)，從而改善與這些國家的關(guān)系？

Sackur: It’s a very important message you’re sending. Maybe China could consider some gestures that would improve relations with not just the United States but many other countries, including Australia and the UK who’ve made the same point to your government.?One, will you now categorically guarantee to close down the so-called “wet markets”, that there will no longer be the sale of these live wild animals in the food markets that are known as the “wet markets”? Is that now something that has been banned, not just short term, but absolutely banned forever in China?

劉大使：首先，我不同意你關(guān)于中國與許多國家關(guān)系出現(xiàn)問題的說法，中國的朋友多，對手少，敵人更少。正如我所說，少數(shù)西方國家不能代表整個世界。中國擁有良好的對外關(guān)系，正在積極推動國際抗疫合作。正如習(xí)近平主席所說，團(tuán)結(jié)合作是國際社會戰(zhàn)勝疫情最有力武器。

Ambassador: First, on your first point about “many countries”, I cannot agree with you that China has a problem with many countries. I would say we have more friends than opponents or enemies. A few Western countries do not represent the world. I think China enjoys good relationships. And I think we are building an international response. As President Xi said, solidarity and cooperation are the most powerful weapons to fight the pandemic. I will come back to the “wet market”.

主持人：我們時間不多了，劉大使，你能不能就“濕貨市場”問題給出具體明確的回答？市場關(guān)了還是沒關(guān)？

Sackur: Ambassador, we are short of time. I just need a specific answer on the “wet markets”. Are they right now closed for good, yes or no?

劉大使：事實上，在中國根本不存在所謂的“濕貨市場”，這個說法對很多中國人都很陌生，是西方、外來的說法。人們常說的是農(nóng)貿(mào)市場和活禽海鮮市場，主要銷售新鮮的蔬菜、海鮮等農(nóng)副產(chǎn)品，也有非常少數(shù)市場銷售活禽。你所談到的應(yīng)該是非法銷售野生動物的市場，已經(jīng)被徹底禁止。中國全國人大已經(jīng)通過決定，全面禁止非法野生動物交易。

Ambassador: There's no such a thing as “wet market”. This is a Western, a foreign, notion to many Chinese. We do have fresh food markets where fresh vegetables, fresh seafood, fish, are sold, and some live poultry. I think you are talking about the so-called illegal market for selling wildlife. That has been totally banned. The law has been passed and it will be banned permanently. It’s illegal…

主持人：這是否意味著中國政府已經(jīng)意識到這些野生動物市場的危險性，即它們確實造成病毒從動物傳給人類？

Sackur: That is therefore a recognition -- I just want to be clear -- a recognition on your government’s part that the dangers of those markets, where live wild animals were sold alongside other foodstuffs, they were dangers that did cause the spread coronavirus from animals to humans.

劉大使：我們終于達(dá)成了一項一致。請注意，這里所說的是非法野生動物市場已完全被禁止，在中國獵捕、交易、食用野生動物都是非法的。

Ambassdor: I agree with that. Finally, we have a few points to agree on. I'm very pleased with that. That's why this market, we're talking about illegal wildlife market, is totally banned. It's illegal to hunt, to trade, to eat wild animals.

主持人：如果中方能在新冠肺炎病毒蔓延之前早點下達(dá)禁令，就不會給世界造成這么大的傷害。中方是否將為此道歉？

Sackur: So people watching this will only wish that you had made that ban real before coronavirus spread and cause such terrible damage around the world. Are you in any way prepared to say sorry for what has happened?

劉大使：你又回到了采訪開始時的問題。我要說，不能因為疫情在中國發(fā)現(xiàn)就指責(zé)中國，這是錯誤的。中國發(fā)現(xiàn)了疫情，在很多與中國毫無聯(lián)系的地方也發(fā)現(xiàn)了疫情。不能因為中方暴發(fā)疫情就指責(zé)中國，要看到中國竭盡所能努力抗疫。中國是病毒受害者，中國不是病毒制造者，中國也不是病毒源頭。對于這一點，必須要明確。

Ambassador: So you come to your?first point again. You can't blame China for coronavirus. That's the problem of this argument. It was found in China. It was found in many other places that have no connection with China at all. So you can't point your fingers at China for the outbreak, and we have done our best.?China is a victim of the coronavirus, but China is not a source of this problem. China is not the producer of this epidemic, and that is something we have to come clean about.

主持人：但一些英國政界要員稱中國應(yīng)為疫情負(fù)責(zé)，比如，議會下議院外委會主席表示，中國政府實行的是前蘇聯(lián)式、有害的體制，這種體制損害中國人民的健康和福祉，背叛了中國人民，也背叛了世界。他們呼吁英國、美國和其他一些國家切斷與中國的緊密經(jīng)濟聯(lián)系。在英國，這一問題的核心是，華為不應(yīng)被繼續(xù)允許參與英5G網(wǎng)絡(luò)建設(shè)。作為中國駐英國大使，你是否擔(dān)心對華經(jīng)濟脫鉤？

Sackur: China is seen, for example, by leading politicians in this country, like the Chairman of the Parliamentary Foreign Affairs Select Committee, as very much the cause. He’s talked about a soviet style system, a toxic system, inside your government, inside your regime, which he says has been responsible not just for betraying the Chinese people and their health or wellbeing, but betraying the wider world as well. And there are now calls in the United Kingdom, and also calls in the United States and other countries, for a disengagement from close economic ties with China. In Britain, it’s of course centered on Huawei, your telephones giant’s activities in the 5G sector. People say that should no longer be tolerated in the United Kingdom. As the Ambassador in the UK, are you worried that there is going to be now an economic disengagement?

劉大使：既擔(dān)心，也不擔(dān)心。你所談到的那位政界要員，他的觀點不能代表英國政府的官方立場。我相信，在約翰遜首相領(lǐng)導(dǎo)下，英國政府仍致力于發(fā)展強勁的中英關(guān)系。在與習(xí)主席的兩次通電話中，約翰遜首相重申將致力于推進(jìn)中英關(guān)系“黃金時代”。疫情期間，中英除了緊密溝通之外，還積極開展合作。我出任中國駐英國大使10年了，從未見到兩國領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人和高層保持如此密切的聯(lián)系，除了習(xí)近平主席與約翰遜首相兩次通話外，中央外事工作委員會辦公室主任楊潔篪、國務(wù)委員兼外長王毅同英國首相國家安全事務(wù)顧問塞德維爾、外交大臣拉布保持密切溝通，我也與外交大臣拉布，衛(wèi)生大臣漢考克，商業(yè)、能源和產(chǎn)業(yè)戰(zhàn)略大臣夏爾馬保持密切接觸，中英關(guān)系十分強勁。至于你提到有人將中國比作前蘇聯(lián)，這完全是“冷戰(zhàn)”思維。我們已經(jīng)生活在二十一世紀(jì)第三個十年，而這些人還停留在過去“冷戰(zhàn)”時期。中國不是前蘇聯(lián)。中英之間的共同利益遠(yuǎn)大于分歧，我對中英關(guān)系充滿信心。

Ambassador: Yes and no. I think you talk about this person as a very senior politician, but I don't think this view represents the official position of the UK government. I think the UK government under Prime Minister Johnson is still committed to a stronger partnership with China. In his two telephone conversations with President Xi, he reaffirmed UK’s commitment to building a Golden Era with China. And we do have very good cooperation with the UK side throughout this outbreak, in addition to intensive communication. I've been here for 10 years as a Chinese Ambassador. I have never seen that our top leaders have such an intensive communications between them. And also at the ministerial level, we have our State Councilor?and Foreign Minister Wang Yi having telephone conversation with Secretary Raab, and Yang Jiechi, Director of the Office of the Central Commission for Foreign Affairs, having close contact with the Sir Mark Sedwill. Here in London, I have very close contact with the government secretaries, including Secretaries Mat Hancock and Alok Sharma, and Foreign Secretary Raab. We have a very strong, robust relationship. And you quote those people using Soviet example. I think this is a totally Cold War mentality. We are living in the third decade of the 21st century, but those people still live in the old days when they were fighting the cold war. China is not former Soviet Union. I think China and the UK are united by common interests rather than divided by our differences. So I'm very confident about this relationship.

主持人：劉大使，我們即將結(jié)束采訪。我再次對你在艱難時期做客《尖銳對話》表示感謝。

Sackur: All right, Ambassador, we have to end there. But I do thank you very much indeed for joining me on Hardtalk at this difficult time. Liu Xiaoming, thank you very much indeed.

劉大使：不必客氣。

Ambassador: My pleasure.

來源：中國日報雙語新聞

綜合：中國駐英大使館 央視新聞